[jh51]

I have recently moved to an area of the US (central Ohio) where I have encountered a treatment they refer to as "2 club asking". As it was explained to me, it is essentially an alternative to new minor forcing or checkback stayman.

Playing with a 15-17 1NT bid: After a sequence like 1m-1M-1NT, 2C says that responder has 5 cards in his major and the responses are:
2D shows 2 card support and 12-13 HCP
2H shows 3 card support and 12-13 HCP
2S shows 3 card support and 14 HCP
2NT shows 2 card sipport and 14 HCP

Has anyone else encountered this convention, prehaps under a different name? My web searches haven't found a match for this yet. My gut feel is that it is inferior to NMF or Checkback stayman (the latter being my preference), but I would like to see if I can find some discussion of the bid, and its advantages and disadvantages.

[blackshoe]

Never heard of it. FWIW I agree with your gut feeling.

[Phil]

jh51, on Jun 10 2010, 04:13 PM, said:

I have recently moved to an area of the US (central Ohio) where I have encountered a treatment...

REXFORD.

Jk he wouldn't play something this lame.

[jjbrr]

blackshoe, on Jun 10 2010, 03:59 PM, said:

Never heard of it. FWIW I agree with your gut feeling.

+1

[bluecalm]

This is standard checkback scheme in Poland.
Actualy now a lot of pairs play 2way checkback of some kind but still majority plays the way you described. 5 years ago basically everybody played that way. In Poland it's called "magister" (from the nickname of player who popularized it).

I feel it's superior to 2way checkback, especially in systems where you don't have to deal with 12+hcp hands with 4M-5m ditribution.

In Poland we play that other major is max with 3card support and old major is min with 3card support so answers are different after 1♥/1♠ bid.
NMF is kinda lame if you don't play 2way (so old minor is NF) because then you don't have a bid with 4m-5+m not forcing hands, for example:

Axxx x KJxxxx xx

1♣ - 1♠
1NT - ?????

There is the same problem with clubs after ♦ opening. Most people solve it in the way tha bidding 2♣ asking and then 3♣ is weak signoff. With 5+diamonds you just bid 2♦.
Other advantages are that you instantly know opener's range and you are well positioned for slam exploration which you don't have space for in 2way checkback or classical NMF. You can also easily stop in 2M partscore if opener is minimum as well as ask for future description of his hand via 2NT (2NT after 2♣ is forcing SI+).

[Siegmund]

It's not SO different from the version of checkback stayman published in (for instance) Matula's 1994 Polish Club book: strike the "promises a 5-card major" part, and replace "12-13" and "14" with "min" and "max" (it would make more sense to put the 13s with the maxes than the mins, and in my partnership 11s are very possible), and you pretty much have it...

after 1m-1H-1NT-2C:
2D = denies 3 hearts, min
2H = 3 hearts, min
2S = 3 hearts, max
2NT = denies 3 hearts, max

After 1m-1S-1NT-2C you need room to find out about 4 hearts also, so you have to make some priority decisions re what's in 2D and 2H. Here is one way:
2D = denies 3 spades, minimum, 4 hearts still possible
2H = 4 hearts, maximum, 3 spades still possible
2S = 3 spades, minimum
2NT = no major, maximum
3C = 3 spades, maximum, denies 4 hearts

In that form I consider it spectacularly better than off-the-shelf one-way NMF. With extremely careful definition of 3rd-round continuations and responder's other rebids, it can approach the efficiency of two-way NMF. Not nearly as space-wasting as the occasional person who wants to jump to 3M with 3-card support and a maximum after NMF.

I forget, off the top of my head, if "Kantar Checkback" is the same kind of thing or not.

[jjbrr]

bluecalm, on Jun 10 2010, 05:36 PM, said:

Axxx x KJxxxx xx

1♣ - 1♠
1NT - ?????

lol

[kenrexford]

Being from central Ohio somewhat, I think you have the convention off a bit. I also used to play this, up to fairly recently.

The 2♣ call, though, does not promise a fifth card in the major. Rather, it is simply invitational, with 2♦ instead being GF. The responses are as you describe, however. 2 min, 3 min, 3 max, 2 max.

It works fairly well, in conjunction with a 2NT. Some of us have changed to a different structure, though, where 2♦ now handles all minimums, 2RM with 3-piece max, and 2OM with 3-piece max and 4-piece in other major.

[Free]

jh51, on Jun 10 2010, 10:13 PM, said:

Playing with a 15-17 1NT bid: After a sequence like 1m-1M-1NT, 2C says that responder has 5 cards in his major and the responses are:
2D shows 2 card support and 12-13 HCP
2H shows 3 card support and 12-13 HCP
2S shows 3 card support and 14 HCP
2NT shows 2 card sipport and 14 HCP

It's called Roudi, you can find a lot of it in French.

[jh51]

kenrexford, on Jun 10 2010, 10:15 PM, said:

Being from central Ohio somewhat, I think you have the convention off a bit. I also used to play this, up to fairly recently.

It is entirely possible that you are correct. After having seen it on a few convention cards at the local club, I asked my partner what it was, and this was how I understood what she said. I don't know if she explained it wrong or I mentally added the part about 5 of the bid major.

What bothers me with this convention is that if responder has 5 spades and 4 hearts, how does one find out about a possible heart fit unless you abandon this convention for checkback as explained by Siegmund?

[kenrexford]

jh51, on Jun 11 2010, 08:15 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Jun 10 2010, 10:15 PM, said:

Being from central Ohio somewhat, I think you have the convention off a bit.  I also used to play this, up to fairly recently.

It is entirely possible that you are correct. After having seen it on a few convention cards at the local club, I asked my partner what it was, and this was how I understood what she said. I don't know if she explained it wrong or I mentally added the part about 5 of the bid major.

What bothers me with this convention is that if responder has 5 spades and 4 hearts, how does one find out about a possible heart fit unless you abandon this convention for checkback as explained by Siegmund?

The idea is to show support with support as a primary duty. With 5-4:

1minor-P-1♠
1NT-2♣
???

When Opener has a three-fit for spades, he will bid 2♥ or 2♠, depending on strength. If Responder opts to play at the two-level, the fit might be the inferior 5-3 rather than a 4-4. But, if Responder opts to pursue game with another call, 3♥ completes the picture.

When Opener lacks a 3-fit, witha minimum, 2♦ solves that problem:

1minor-1♠
1NT-2♣
2♦-2♥(5-4 passable)

Same thing with no 3-fit but maximum:

1minor-1♠
1NT-2♣
2NT-3♥