BBO Discussion Forums: Imagine there's no Jacoby 2N, it's easy if you try - BBO Discussion Forums

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Imagine there's no Jacoby 2N, it's easy if you try

#1 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2010-June-08, 22:45

If the ACBL banned Jacoby 2NT for some reason, but anything else within reason was allowed, what would you prefer that 2NT mean?

I thought about things like...

1. Unknown mini-splinter
2. Immediate 3-card limit raise
3. Minors
4. Balanced
5. One-suited weak minor

I even played for a while (and loved it) that 1S-P-2NT showed a GF hand with 5+ hearts and no spade fit (such that 1S-P-2H was constructive but passable).

Any ideas?
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#2 User is offline   mohitz 

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Posted 2010-June-08, 23:03

Would prefer both minors invitational. There is no real way to bid such hands playing 2/1.
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#3 User is offline   kfay 

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Posted 2010-June-08, 23:16

Balanced GF, wtp?
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#4 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2010-June-08, 23:44

Having played 2n balanced GF for a little while, I really don't like it. It just seems like there's a ton of guessing about whether to bid 3N or 4M and you don't really have room to both sort out stoppers and show some slam interest. For me those auctions start much better with 2♣. So I guess I would play 2♣ as balanced GF, possibly with 4M, and 2n as either weak or GF with single-suited clubs? I bet Ken approves.
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#5 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 01:02

Balanced GF for me also. You have various responses you can play over this - either showing a s/t or void, or else bid a 4 card second suit. You aill only be at the 3 level, not 4 level.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#6 User is offline   mich-b 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 01:38

kenrexford, on Jun 8 2010, 11:45 PM, said:

If the ACBL banned Jacoby 2NT for some reason, but anything else within reason was allowed, what would you prefer that 2NT mean?

I thought about things like...

1. Unknown mini-splinter
2. Immediate 3-card limit raise
3. Minors
4. Balanced
5. One-suited weak minor

I even played for a while (and loved it) that 1S-P-2NT showed a GF hand with 5+ hearts and no spade fit (such that 1S-P-2H was constructive but passable).

Any ideas?

I quite like
2. Immediate 3-card limit raise

unless my system includes those hands in a 2♣ response , so to be able to play those hands in 2M , when opener rejects the invite. I think some Italians had this feature in their system (2♣ = GF relay or 3 card invite).

Removing the 3 card invite from the 1NT response , makes it much easier to play it as semi forcing (ok, non-forcing..) and opener can pass 1NT with a 5332 minimum , without worrying about responder having some 3154 9-10p.
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#7 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 01:42

any answer except natural is hopless
OK
bed
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#8 User is offline   cherdanno 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 01:44

jjbrr, on Jun 9 2010, 02:42 AM, said:

any answer except natural is hopless

LOL
"Are you saying that LTC merits a more respectful dismissal?"
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#9 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 02:26

Natural signoff.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#10 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 03:53

Jordan 2NT...
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#11 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 05:00

jjbrr, on Jun 9 2010, 02:42 AM, said:

any answer except natural is hopless

LOL
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#12 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 05:02

jjbrr, on Jun 9 2010, 07:42 PM, said:

any answer except natural is hopless

Where do you need to hop to?
Wayne Burrows

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#13 User is offline   mohitz 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 05:03

gwnn, on Jun 9 2010, 01:56 PM, said:

Natural signoff.

I like this!
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#14 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 05:32

natural is ok, though I'd prefer something like a NF 11-12 flattish raise.
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#15 User is offline   Bende 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 07:03

I would prefer balanced game force.
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#16 User is offline   RichMor 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 07:55

First choice; very strong and balanced, like the old Baron 2NT. Good for slam bidding and limits other sequences.

Second choice; mystery mini splinter.

RichM
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#17 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 08:19

kfay, on Jun 9 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

Balanced GF, wtp?

Yeah LOL. Kind of like what I play now?
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#18 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 11:31

I was thinking about this recently, and I think I personally am inclined toward the mystery mini-splinter if the opening is spades (with possibly some other riders meanings), but an immediate limit raise if the opening is hearts, because the heart auction mystery mini-splinter is cramped for space anyway, and because 1H-P-1NT-P-??? is a tough sequence when Opener has 4522.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#19 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 11:36

As an alternative to natural, I like the idea of compressing mini-splinters into 1♥ - 2♠ and 1♠ - 2N. You could then keep the 1M - 3x as invitational.
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#20 User is offline   eyhung 

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Posted 2010-June-09, 11:55

With my partner Joel Hoersch, I play "Joelcoby" -- 2NT promises 3-card support (could be more) and a balanced hand. Opener rebids show shape (bal/unbal) and strength and responder has relays available to identify the best game (or slam). I like it, it's definitely superior to standard Jacoby for choice-of-games auctions, but it's not easy to remember all the followups.
Eugene Hung
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