[bid_em_up]

billw55, on Jun 8 2010, 09:12 AM, said:

Apparently once you are over 70 everyone under 40 looks the same.

When you're over 70, you're glad you can still see, even if poorly.

[jjbrr]

It's also awkward when I show up at a tournament or new club or something and people start asking if I've ever played a tournament before and how long I've been playing and the whole shakedown. Invariably I have been playing the game a lot longer than they have and have more MPs than they will ever get close to amassing.

Suddenly I'm neither as cute nor as interesting

[hanp]

But you are a bridge god Jeremy. Didn't you just win a worldwide bridge tournament or something?

[jjbrr]

lol?

[jillybean]

jjbrr, on Jun 8 2010, 07:46 AM, said:

It's also awkward when I show up at a tournament or new club or something and people start asking if I've ever played a tournament before and how long I've been playing and the whole shakedown. Invariably I have been playing the game a lot longer than they have and have more MPs than they will ever get close to amassing.

Suddenly I'm neither as cute nor as interesting

I don't understand this, doesn't that make you more appealing?

[jjbrr]

No, it makes them look silly for assuming youth was an indication of inexperience.

[Phil]

jjbrr, on Jun 8 2010, 02:56 PM, said:

No, it makes them look silly for assuming youth was an indication of inexperience.

And for revealing their own prejudice.

[awm]

A few years ago Elianna and I took a pair of UCLA students who were (at the time) pretty much beginners to play at a local club. The club had a small game that particular day and you'd think they would be glad that a whole table of (relatively) young people showed up to the game.

Not so.

Several different people complained to us that the UCLA students were "not good enough" to play in this game (even though we encountered several pairs who were arguably more clueless -- though older -- during the session). One player was very vocal that they "should not be allowed to play here." Of course, people are also upset that we show up in this game calling us "sharks," expressing hope that they "get to skip us" and saying that we don't belong in the game. This is also somewhat humorous because while we are certainly much better players than the typical club field, no one complains when various older experts (some of whom have actual national championships, unlike Elianna and me) show up at the same club. Some of the players even like to brag about how "strong" the field is in the various games at this club (while at the same time wishing that good young players would stay away)!

Since then we have taken the UCLA students (when we can pry them away from their studying and/or partying schedule) to a different club. Part of it is that Elianna directs there, but they also seem happier to have us show up.

[blackshoe]

awm, on Jun 8 2010, 04:11 PM, said:

One player was very vocal that they "should not be allowed to play here."

I would ask the club owner to give this idiot a copy of the ACBL's regulations regarding club sanctions, and ask if he would rather the ACBL rescind the club's sanction. You'd probably have to explain to him in words of one syllable that it would mean no more ACBL masterpoints.

[Elianna]

blackshoe, on Jun 8 2010, 04:00 PM, said:

awm, on Jun 8 2010, 04:11 PM, said:

One player was very vocal that they "should not be allowed to play here."

I would ask the club owner to give this idiot a copy of the ACBL's regulations regarding club sanctions, and ask if he would rather the ACBL rescind the club's sanction. You'd probably have to explain to him in words of one syllable that it would mean no more ACBL masterpoints.

Not quite true. From the handbook: http://www.acbl.org/assets/documents/Handb..._Chapter-04.pdf

Quote

The club manager can handle many behavior problems by discussing them with the offenders, by issuing a warning, or declaring a period of probation. In extreme cases or cases of repeat offenses, the manager can bar an ACBL member from the club game for a stipulated period of time, or permanently. No open club may bar an ACBL member or members as a class, based upon the player’s race, creed, religion, political affiliation, sexual orientation, national origin, and physical handicap or on his proficiency at bridge.
Unless a non ACBL member is currently suspended or expelled from participation in ACBL sanctioned events, permission to play in an ACBL sanctioned event at that club is at the sole discretion of the club management and ACBL has no jurisdiction. Therefore, except for a barring alleged to be for the above discriminatory reasons, these regulations do not apply (i.e. the ACBL requirements and rights enumerated in this section do not extend to non ACBL members).

I bolded the part that ACBL-sanctioned clubs may not discriminate against. (Sidenote: If the person knows nothing about bridge, they cannot be banned solely for that.) I would point out that age is not a protected class, so the club is FREE to ban, say, Adam and I on the basis of our age, but not on basis of perceived skill. So for our case and for the students Adam mentioned earlier, even if it was because of skill, they could claim age or something else, and not lose the sanction.

Tl;dr: A club CAN ban someone on the basis of age alone.

[blackshoe]

Hm. I wonder what a Federal court would say about that?

[Phil]

blackshoe, on Jun 8 2010, 08:31 PM, said:

Hm. I wonder what a Federal court would say about that?

Or I wonder if they tried to ban folks over, say 80?

(besides losing half their business, chuckle)

[CSGibson]

The federal court would say nothing. The ACBL bans people from games based on age all the time, calling them "senior" events. They also have gender specific events, too, if I recall.

The only thing would be that, to use age to ban someone, the club would probably have to ban all people of that age and older/younger for the ACBL to continue to sanction the club.

[Elianna]

CSGibson, on Jun 8 2010, 06:42 PM, said:

The federal court would say nothing. The ACBL bans people from games based on age all the time, calling them "senior" events. They also have gender specific events, too, if I recall.

The only thing would be that, to use age to ban someone, the club would probably have to ban all people of that age and older/younger for the ACBL to continue to sanction the club.

Exactly. We were the only ones under a certain age. Even if they were complaining specifically about us and this other pair for bridge experience reasons, they wouldn't have caught other people in the net if they decided that one had to be over a certain age to play in the club (say 40).

Which, btw, is that several players seem to believe: That those young enough to be their grandchildren (whatever age that may be) shouldn't be at the bridge club, because they come to the bridge club to get away from the grandchildren. (A quote from someone, not something that I made up.)

[blackshoe]

There's a difference between a senior event (or a junior event, or a women's event, or a men's event) and a general ban from all games at a club solely on the basis of age.

Invitational clubs, or invitational games, are possible, but it does not seem reasonable to me to ban people from an open game on the basis of age. I shall ask the ACBL.

[ggwhiz]

Two years ago, Carole and I had 30 tables of 10-12 year olds playing an event at our Regional.

None of our volunteer assistants showed up and it was a bit of mayhem opposite a morning side game. OK, a lot of mayhem.

One out of town player demanded her entry fee back because of the noise.

[karlson]

Come on, telling this club that discriminating on the basis of age is against the rules isn't going to solve any problems. The attitude is the issue, not the rules.

I think it would be fantastic if we could have separate games for older crowds and younger crowds, or separate competitive and non/competitive games so that people could choose which type of atmosphere they prefer. Unfortunately we don't seem to have enough bridge players to do so.

[CSGibson]

Elianna, on Jun 8 2010, 08:07 PM, said:

CSGibson, on Jun 8 2010, 06:42 PM, said:

The federal court would say nothing.  The ACBL bans people from games based on age all the time, calling them "senior" events.  They also have gender specific events, too, if I recall.

The only thing would be that, to use age to ban someone, the club would probably have to ban all people of that age and older/younger for the ACBL to continue to sanction the club.

Exactly. We were the only ones under a certain age. Even if they were complaining specifically about us and this other pair for bridge experience reasons, they wouldn't have caught other people in the net if they decided that one had to be over a certain age to play in the club (say 40).

Which, btw, is that several players seem to believe: That those young enough to be their grandchildren (whatever age that may be) shouldn't be at the bridge club, because they come to the bridge club to get away from the grandchildren. (A quote from someone, not something that I made up.)

I have to say that I have been playing ACBL duplicate for 6 years (and am 30 years old now). I have never had anyone seriously suggest that they would rather I didn't play because I was too young, or that they were in any way bothered by my age. In fact, I've had the opposite experience - people are worried that there aren't enough younger people to perpetuate the game that they love.

I don't know why our experiences are different, but I imagine that the difference is probably only a few people - either I've got better old people in my clubs, or our old people have had fewer bad experiences in general with young bridge players to corrupt their view.

[awm]

It may be worth mentioning that the club policy at this club (as at most clubs) is quite welcoming to young players (new and potentially long term business). In fact UCLA students even play free there. It is the players (in fact even a minority of players although a very vocal minority) who object to playing against young people. We are some combination of: too inexperienced, too skillful, too fond of newfangled methods, or simply not sufficiently part of their social circle for them to want to play against us. And again, not all (or even most) club players fall into this category, but the ones who do can be quite vocal about it, and zero tolerence is not enforced in the same way when young folks are the offended parties...

[gwnn]

It seems all the niceness in American bridge playing senior citizens was hogged by kenberg. Not very nice.