[hrothgar]

kenberg, on Jun 7 2010, 03:40 PM, said:

So then what do you make of "Iran has warned that it could send Revolutionary Guard naval units to escort humanitarian aid convoys seeking to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza"?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/0...iran-aid-convoy

Meaningless posturing...

[helene_t]

I bet few if any of those organizations who try to break the blockade would want to be escorted by Iranian warships anyway.

The Turkish PM also threatened to send warships but they can probably be talked out of it in the unlikely event that the thread is to be taken serious.

[PassedOut]

The latest column by conservative christian Ross Douthat puts into perspective the effect of a decade of blunders on Israel's security: Israel and Outremer

Quote

A decade ago, before the collapse of the peace process, the Israelis seemed to be faring better than Outremer on all three fronts. Their potent armed forces and nuclear deterrent more than offset the weakness of their geographic position. After decades of isolation, they had forged reasonably stable relationships with many regional powers — including Turkey, Jordan and Egypt — and an enduring bond with the world’s superpower, the United States. Their substantial Arab minority was better-treated and better-integrated than minority populations in almost any other Middle Eastern state. And they appeared to be disentangling themselves from the long-term occupation of a much larger Arab population in Gaza and the West Bank.

Ten years later, though, only the military advantage endures. Diplomatically and demographically, Israel increasingly faces the same problems that bedeviled the 12th-century kings of Jerusalem.

In the wake of the Gaza and Lebanon wars, and now the blockade-running fiasco, the Jewish state is as isolated on the world stage as it’s been since the dark Zionism-is-racism years of the 1970s.

Unfortunately it takes many decades of very hard work to recover from a single decade of blunders. Israel is not alone in this, as the US still has a long way to go to recover from the blunders of the Dubya years.

Of all the US presidents, Jimmy Carter had (and continues to have) the best handle on the situation there. Obama listens to him, but is much more of a political animal than Carter. If Israel does not change course, the gulf between the US and Israel will necessarily continue to widen.

[Winstonm]

kenberg, on Jun 7 2010, 05:11 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Jun 6 2010, 10:10 PM, said:

kenberg, on Jun 6 2010, 08:42 PM, said:

I will place no bets on what either Iran or Israel will do now. But it is tough to see how either can now back down and if neither does, I suppose it will lead to total war between the two of them. Hopefully it can be kept to the two of them.

Predicting the future is difficult, predicting the events here is impossible. Russia and the US managed to bring it back from the edge in 1962, but I was seriously thinking of putting the wife and child on the motorcycle and heading for open space. Kruschnev and Kennedy were a good deal saner than Netanyahu and Ahmadinejad.

I think Netanyahu's strategy should be to convince Ahmadinejad that he, Netanyahu, is just as crazy as Ahmadinejad. The craziest guy often wins at chicken. (I actually played chicken once as a teenager. It was very very close. One of the many things that I didn't do twice.)

You are concerned about the wrong person. Ahmadinejad does not have control of the armed forces and cannot take Iran to war.

When the bombs are falling we will all keep that in mind. I confess i have no idea how Iranian military decisions are made, but I suppose if the Iranians deploy a ship to escort the blockade runner, if it fores on an Israeli ship, and if the Israelis sink it, the Iranians will know how to wage war.

I think it is important to know and understand our enemies:

Quote

At the top of Iran's power structure is the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who succeeded Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the father of the Iranian Revolution, upon Khomeini's death in 1989. Khomeini and Khamenei are the only two men to have held the office since the founding of the Islamic Republic in 1979.

Quote

According to Iran's Constitution, the Supreme Leader is responsible for the delineation and supervision of "the general policies of the Islamic Republic of Iran," which means that he sets the tone and direction of Iran's domestic and foreign policies. The Supreme Leader also is commander-in-chief of the armed forces and controls the Islamic Republic's intelligence and security operations; he alone can declare war or peace. He has the power to appoint and dismiss the leaders of the judiciary, the state radio and television networks, and the supreme commander of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. He also appoints six of the twelve members of the Council of Guardians, the powerful body that oversees the activities of Parliament and determines which candidates are qualified to run for public office.

[luke warm]

Winstonm, on Jun 7 2010, 01:20 PM, said:

kenberg, on Jun 7 2010, 05:11 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Jun 6 2010, 10:10 PM, said:

kenberg, on Jun 6 2010, 08:42 PM, said:

I will place no bets on what either Iran or Israel will do now. But it is tough to see how either can now back down and if neither does, I suppose it will lead to total war between the two of them. Hopefully it can be kept to the two of them.

Predicting the future is difficult, predicting the events here is impossible. Russia and the US managed to bring it back from the edge in 1962, but I was seriously thinking of putting the wife and child on the motorcycle and heading for open space. Kruschnev and Kennedy were a good deal saner than Netanyahu and Ahmadinejad.

I think Netanyahu's strategy should be to convince Ahmadinejad that he, Netanyahu, is just as crazy as Ahmadinejad. The craziest guy often wins at chicken. (I actually played chicken once as a teenager. It was very very close. One of the many things that I didn't do twice.)

You are concerned about the wrong person. Ahmadinejad does not have control of the armed forces and cannot take Iran to war.

When the bombs are falling we will all keep that in mind. I confess i have no idea how Iranian military decisions are made, but I suppose if the Iranians deploy a ship to escort the blockade runner, if it fores on an Israeli ship, and if the Israelis sink it, the Iranians will know how to wage war.

I think it is important to know and understand our enemies

hasn't iran already declared war on israel (and us, and the rest of the west)? "Peace only unto those who follow the true path." is pretty specific, imo

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Jun 8 2010, 01:10 AM, said:

hasn't iran already declared war on israel (and us, and the rest of the west)? "Peace only unto those who follow the true path." is pretty specific, imo

It's also a mistranslation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmad..._George_W._Bush

Personally, I prefer the following

Quote

States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world.  By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger.  They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred.  They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States.  In any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic.

We will work closely with our coalition to deny terrorists and their state sponsors the materials, technology, and expertise to make and deliver weapons of mass destruction.  We will develop and deploy effective missile defenses to protect America and our allies from sudden attack.  (Applause.) And all nations should know:  America will do what is necessary to ensure our nation's security.

We'll be deliberate, yet time is not on our side.  I will not wait on events, while dangers gather.  I will not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer.  The United States of America will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world's most destructive weapons. 

Our war on terror is well begun, but it is only begun.

[Rossoneri]

kenberg, on Jun 7 2010, 02:42 AM, said:

I think Netanyahu's strategy should be to convince Ahmadinejad that he, Netanyahu, is just as crazy as Ahmadinejad. The craziest guy often wins at chicken. (I actually played chicken once as a teenager. It was very very close. One of the many things that I didn't do twice.)

Not that difficult IMO. Netanyanhu is pretty hardline partially due to the death of his brother during the Entebbe Raid.

[Winstonm]

luke warm, on Jun 7 2010, 05:10 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Jun 7 2010, 01:20 PM, said:

kenberg, on Jun 7 2010, 05:11 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Jun 6 2010, 10:10 PM, said:

kenberg, on Jun 6 2010, 08:42 PM, said:

I will place no bets on what either Iran or Israel will do now. But it is tough to see how either can now back down and if neither does, I suppose it will lead to total war between the two of them. Hopefully it can be kept to the two of them.

Predicting the future is difficult, predicting the events here is impossible. Russia and the US managed to bring it back from the edge in 1962, but I was seriously thinking of putting the wife and child on the motorcycle and heading for open space. Kruschnev and Kennedy were a good deal saner than Netanyahu and Ahmadinejad.

I think Netanyahu's strategy should be to convince Ahmadinejad that he, Netanyahu, is just as crazy as Ahmadinejad. The craziest guy often wins at chicken. (I actually played chicken once as a teenager. It was very very close. One of the many things that I didn't do twice.)

You are concerned about the wrong person. Ahmadinejad does not have control of the armed forces and cannot take Iran to war.

When the bombs are falling we will all keep that in mind. I confess i have no idea how Iranian military decisions are made, but I suppose if the Iranians deploy a ship to escort the blockade runner, if it fores on an Israeli ship, and if the Israelis sink it, the Iranians will know how to wage war.

I think it is important to know and understand our enemies

hasn't iran already declared war on israel (and us, and the rest of the west)? "Peace only unto those who follow the true path." is pretty specific, imo

About as specific as the Talmud:

Quote

"It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah." TALMUD: Coschen Hamischpat, Hagah 425.

"A heretic Gentile you may kill outright with your own hands." TALMUD: Abodah Zara, 4b.

"Every Jew who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God." TALMUD: Bammidber raba c 21 & jalkut 772.

Absolutists (defined as those who believe only they possess THE real truth) are the most dangerous individuals in the world - they may not blow themselves up but they work constantly to undermine any action inconsistent with their views, including peace talks.

No matter which side you chose to support in the middle east, it is the wrong side.

[PassedOut]

Images showing Turks caring for injured commandos seem to contradict the Israeli claim that deadly force was necessary to save Israeli lives: Turkish Doctor Describes Treating Israeli Commandos During Raid

Quote

Ali Abunimah, a founder of the Electronic Intifada, argued in a post on his blog that images of the commando being treated by Dr. Uysal, along with other photographs apparently taken during the raid that show bloodied and disarmed commandos in the custody of passengers inside the ship, contradict Israeli suggestions that the aim of the passengers was to kill the soldiers.

In a telephone interview conducted in Turkish, Dr. Uysal said that he had treated three Israeli commandos and argued that this proved that the passengers had no intention of killing them:

First of all it’s against logic that these soldiers would not be killed but instead be taken to the medical center if the intention of the activists was to kill them. If people on board were so eager to hurt them, why would they not just shoot them to death once they had taken their guns? Why bother carting them inside for treatment? It just doesn’t add up.

I am a doctor, and the Israeli soldiers were brought to me to check their medical situation and treat them properly. I had our dead bodies and injured people lying in front of me and I was treating the soldiers that actually killed and wounded them. None of our friends in the center approached to harm or hurt them. Our injured people were lying on the ground, but I rested the soldiers on our chairs.

Though the Israelis tried to confiscate all such photos in order to manage the news, reporter Sefik Dinc successfully smuggled these out.