[Little Kid]

Scoring: IMP

(Pass)-Pass- (1♥) - X
(Pass) - 2♣ - (2♦) - X
  (2♥) - 2♠ - (Pass) - ?

---

LHO deals and passes, as does partner. RHO opens 1♥ and the auction proceeds. Do you move now?

[Hanoi5]

I'm gonna bid 4♠, there's a bonus for making that contract.

[the hog]

I do not share Hanoi's enthusiasm, as this is extremely unusual bidding. If partner has 4S, why did she not bid spades immediately. What is this 2C bid? Surely finding a Major suit fit takes the highest priority. Partner appears to have some values as she could have passed 2H. The 2H bid is weird in itself, why not raise immediately.
I don't know and therefore will abstain. This bidding is impossible with any good partner.

[jdonn]

This type of auction is very common, partner has 6 clubs and 4 bad spades. A hand like Jxxx xxx - Axxxxx is very possible. People do that hoping to get another chance since, if they get it, an auction like this is more descriptive and effective than anything starting with spades, plus safer since it reduces the risk of a 4-3 fit with a bad suit.

It may not be cold but I virtually can't imagine 4♠ not at least having a play with my great controls so I'm bidding it.

[rogerclee]

3S

[cherdanno]

3S seems right.

[the hog]

jdonn, on May 29 2010, 10:33 AM, said:

This type of auction is very common, partner has 6 clubs and 4 bad spades. A hand like Jxxx xxx - Axxxxx is very possible. People do that hoping to get another chance since, if they get it, an auction like this is more descriptive and effective than anything starting with spades, plus safer since it reduces the risk of a 4-3 fit with a bad suit.

It may not be cold but I virtually can't imagine 4♠ not at least having a play with my great controls so I'm bidding it.

Might be common with your partners; it cetainly is not with mine where looking for the Major is of paramount importance.

"People do that hoping to get another chance" and if they don't get one....?
Jxxx xxx - Axxxxx is certainly worth a 2S bid - 8 loser hand!

[Bridge_Bain]

Bidding 3S (only) is probably an underbid 65+% of the time. However, it is always nice to give partner an "out".

4♠ is quite reasonable and extremely like to make. All partner needs is ♠Kxxx and ♣Qxxxxx and have a play. Personally, I guess partner has decent values [= 6-8.5 support points] . With crap, partner could just bid 1S even with xxxx, or pass 2♥.

[rogerclee]

Regardless of how you would bid Jxxx xxx void Axxxxx the first time, the question is what would you do with that hand the second time.

[jdonn]

The_Hog, on May 28 2010, 11:22 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 29 2010, 10:33 AM, said:

This type of auction is very common, partner has 6 clubs and 4 bad spades. A hand like Jxxx xxx - Axxxxx is very possible. People do that hoping to get another chance since, if they get it, an auction like this is more descriptive and effective than anything starting with spades, plus safer since it reduces the risk of a 4-3 fit with a bad suit.

It may not be cold but I virtually can't imagine 4♠ not at least having a play with my great controls so I'm bidding it.

Might be common with your partners; it cetainly is not with mine where looking for the Major is of paramount importance.

"People do that hoping to get another chance" and if they don't get one....?
Jxxx xxx - Axxxxx is certainly worth a 2S bid - 8 loser hand!

Not just my partners, I have witnessed it while watching a number of times. And obviously if partner happens to have 3 spades then 2♠ will usually be quite a ridiculous contract with Jxxx.

[Jlall]

I'd pass, guess I'm on a different planet.

edit: I see jdonn has given the example of Jxxx xxx --- Axxxxx. I do not understand this at all, we doubled a second time, that hand should bid at least 3S now.

[Fluffy]

partner made a free bid, but he seems to have 14 cards, where are those hearts?

Anyway, that's opp's problem I am gonna bid game now.

[Jlall]

Fluffy, on May 28 2010, 11:41 PM, said:

partner made a free bid

Yes but we showed a very strong hand by doubling 2D, at least as strong as we have here (I think 16 is quite minimum). Since we encouraged him to bid and he made a non forcing bid I don't see why it shows such a strong hand to bid 2S.

[jdonn]

If he was much weaker than my example I don't think he'd start with 2♣, maybe a little but not much. And yes we are minimum in high cards but now we have a major suit fit and AQ A K K, our Q and K in partners suits and the other K bid on our right.

[Jlall]

If partner is really 4-6 with a yarb, this hand makes no sense. I would have said xxxx xxx --- QTxxxx makes sense to me, but then what are the opponents doing.

In practice I wouldn't be surprised if partner has 3 spades. Nothing else makes sense. And honestly it would be very very rare for me to start wtih 2C with 4 spades, so maybe partner is trying to show his KJx xxx xx QJxxx or something that is a nice hand with 3 good spades and 5 clubs (what should this hand do btw after our second double? It's too good to bid 3C and...).

Actually I feel really good about this that partner is 3-5 with a good hand and concentrated values.

[Bridge_Bain]

Jlall, on May 28 2010, 11:45 PM, said:

Fluffy, on May 28 2010, 11:41 PM, said:

partner made a free bid

Yes but we showed a very strong hand by doubling 2D, at least as strong as we have here (I think 16 is quite minimum). Since we encouraged him to bid and he made a non forcing bid I don't see why it shows such a strong hand to bid 2S.

The double of 2♦ surely sounds like a penalty double. It still does not promise more then 3♠. In fact, it might show wasted ♦ values. Still P made a free bid of 2♠. Partner did not have to bid at all over 2♥.

This hand has all working values/controls and looks a like a lot more then a mere 16. If bidding 3S now is too much for our side, maybe partner should have just bid 1S the first time.

[Bridge_Bain]

Jlall, on May 28 2010, 11:56 PM, said:

If partner is really 4-6 with a yarb, this hand makes no sense. I would have said xxxx xxx --- QTxxxx makes sense to me, but then what are the opponents doing.

In practice I wouldn't be surprised if partner has 3 spades. Nothing else makes sense. And honestly it would be very very rare for me to start wtih 2C with 4 spades, so maybe partner is trying to show his KJx xxx xx QJxxx or something that is a nice hand with 3 good spades and 5 clubs (what should this hand do btw after our second double? It's too good to bid 3C and...).

Actually I feel really good about this that partner is 3-5 with a good hand and concentrated values.

Freely bidding a 3 card suit in this auction makes little sense. You want to ruff hearts in the 4-card hand? Or, maybe be playing a 3-3 fit? Second, who expects the suits to split well on this auction? 2♠ should promise 4.♠.

[More I think about it, partner probably never expect 2♣ to be passed. Looking at our ♦ length plus RHO’s: Partner has at most one ♦s. Partner knew the bidding would not die, and planned to show a medium hand with 9+ black cards.]


Personal Note: I never dreamed I would ever "debate" with JLall. You are one of my bridge gods. No, seriously! I love reading these things and never participate.

[the hog]

Jlall, on May 29 2010, 11:56 AM, said:

If partner is really 4-6 with a yarb, this hand makes no sense. I would have said xxxx xxx --- QTxxxx makes sense to me, but then what are the opponents doing.

In practice I wouldn't be surprised if partner has 3 spades. Nothing else makes sense. And honestly it would be very very rare for me to start wtih 2C with 4 spades, so maybe partner is trying to show his KJx xxx xx QJxxx or something that is a nice hand with 3 good spades and 5 clubs (what should this hand do btw after our second double? It's too good to bid 3C and...).

Actually I feel really good about this that partner is 3-5 with a good hand and concentrated values.

Yes, this is the only conclusion that makes sense. This "partner didn't expect...." stuff too often leaves partner with egg on her face and an apology in the offing.

[Jlall]

Bridge_Bain, on May 29 2010, 12:20 AM, said:

Personal Note: I never dreamed I would ever "debate" with JLall. You are one of my bridge gods. No, seriously! I love reading these things and never participate.

Hah, thanks man, you should participate more often.

A few things I disagree with you about:

1) The X of 2D being penalty. To me it is the normal thing to bid with all strong balanced hands. It can definitely be passed and shows some diamonds, but I wouldn't define it as penalty, and would X with hands like AQJx Axx Kxx AJx. Sure you can bid 2N but it is an undesirable contract if passed, and you have no source of tricks really, so it seems both safer to X (we can still end in 2S/3C), and also it leaves alive the possibility of a penalty if partner is able to pass.

2) Playing in a 3-3 fit is not possible if partner thinks you generally show 3 spades, and it's possible that is what partner thinks. He might just be trying to describe his hand. In general my whole problem with the theory that partner has 4 spades and 6 clubs and a medium hand is that he should not just bid 2S with that, surely that is a very strong hand opposite a second double and it can bid at least 3S. My problem with him having something like 4 small spades and 6 clubs and a really weak hand (which is a reasonable 2C bid imo) is that it is impossible given this auction, it gives the opps more HCP than us, and 9+ hearts, and if only 9 hearts they have 8 diamonds also!

It just all doesn't really make sense to me.

[gnasher]

If I had, for some reason, bid 2♣ on Jxxx xxx - Axxxxx, and heard partner double 2♦, I would now be wondering whether to make a slam try. Doesn't the double of 2♦ show a good hand?