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Lebensohl

#1 User is offline   mohitz 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 07:58

IMPs, we are vul, they are not. We pick up ♠Jx ♥ATx ♦AJxx ♣AKJx

(2♠) - p - (p) - X
(p) - 2N - (p) - ?

We X in balancing seat and partner bids 2N lebensohl. What is our bid?
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 08:03

I chicken out. 3♣.
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#3 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 08:05

3♣, I really don't like this hand to bid something else.
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 08:19

ditto
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. MikeH
"100% certain that many excellent players would disagree. This is far more about style/judgment than right vs. wrong." Fred
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#5 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 08:35

3♣ for me as I think game is a clear underdog here and if PD is broke it could be expensive to bid on.
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#6 User is offline   campboy 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 09:01

Isn't the whole point of playing lebensohl that we can stop in 3m with this kind of hand?
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#7 User is offline   mohitz 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 09:17

Alright, since this is unanimous, let me rephrase the question. With 2344 shape, what is the minimum hand that does not bid 3♣ here?
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#8 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 09:31

mohitz, on May 31 2010, 09:17 AM, said:

Alright, since this is unanimous, let me rephrase the question. With 2344 shape, what is the minimum hand that does not bid 3♣ here?

The given hand is close to the "bubble", IMO.

A Leben 2NT opposite a direct double has a range of, say zero to 8. This is too wide, so we make an artificial floor of 3.

A Leben 2NT opposite a balancing double of 2M has a range of, say, zero to 10. We make an artificial floor of 6. This seems realistic to us.

The given hand is not a great one for trick-taking, and we go low.

"We"=us, not necessarily the sane world.
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#9 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 10:06

I don't really play different ranges opposite a direct and balancing double. In part this is because I'm not balancing a lot lighter than I double in direct seat over a weak two bid (this is different from an opening for a number of reasons, including that we are several levels higher and that RHO is more likely to have strength because opener is more limited).

The lebensohl bid is normally 0-a bad 8 whereas a direct bid is a good 8-11. While the given hand can easily make game opposite a maximum lebensohl bid, you'll have a lot of trouble opposite a more typical 5-count. So I'd accept the puppet to 3♣. Rejecting the lebensohl puppet should show more like a 20-count (maybe a really good 19).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#10 User is offline   cherdanno 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 10:14

Agree with Adam, this isn't even barely close for me.
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#11 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 10:14

Yuck. 3C. What game are we making if we push that partner won't bid over 3C (i.e. 3NT after partner shows a spade stopper)? The hand you want partner to have is, say, xxx KQxxxx xx xx, maybe KJxxxx. That's a pretty small window to hit.

Caveat: I like to keep my actions over weak 2s sounder than most; so this hand really isn't much stronger than minimum. Add to that the fact that there's 2-dead spades (Yeah, Jx turns Qxx into a nice holding, but how is partner going to get that?) and the 4-card suits aren't majors...

When would I break? x AJTx AJxx AKJx might be a good start, but I find even that too small. What would I bid?
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#12 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 10:33

edit: deleted doublepost.
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#13 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 16:38

3C. I expect this to be unanimous.
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#14 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 16:40

cherdanno, on May 31 2010, 11:14 AM, said:

Agree with Adam, this isn't even barely close for me.

I have no idea what that means but I still agree.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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