[jillybean]

Scoring: MP

uncontested auction
P:1♦
1♥:3♦
?

---

What is your bid?
For those who play minorwood/same suit keycard, what is 4♦ here ?
And for those who play kickback, what is 4♥?

[billw55]

Matchpoints, 3NT. In the post mortem I will claim that the ♠9 is a half stopper.

[bluecalm]

3NT can't be bad. There are a lot of minimum hands where it's laydown (AKx x AQJxxx xxx) and they not bidding spades makes it less likely they will take 5tricks there.
This sequence is one the many problems of standard american bidding. There is no way you ever find 5-3♥ after this start.

[655321]

bluecalm, on May 21 2010, 09:30 AM, said:

This sequence is one the many problems of standard american bidding. There is no way you ever find 5-3♥ after this start.

Unless you rebid 3♥ of course!

[jillybean]

3nt, yuk! Im not as worried about missing a ♥ fit as I am a nt/♦ slam.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Unless you rebid 3♥ of course!

Yeah but then you will often play in 4♥ on 7 trumps and if you stipulate that opener needs 3♥ to raise you will miss 6-2♥ games. This sucks but most people don't worry about it all.

[wyman]

To answer at least one part of your question, 4D should be invitational and not minorwood here. My partnerships and I play minorwood in GF auctions only, and I see no need to eliminate the possibility of playing 4D here*, especially at MPs.

What about 3S here? It can't show spades, right? At the very least, partner will bid 3N with a spade stopper, and maybe you'll ring up 630, which should be fine here. After some call that's not 3N by partner, you can bid 5D diamonds, and that should describe a hand like this. Values, no spade cards, non-rebiddable hearts, some diamonds, etc.

Interested in the other thoughts, though.

*here = "in this auction", not "with this hand"

[bluecalm]

Quote

What about 3S here? It can't show spades, right?

According to natural principles it would show ♠ values. Something like : AQx Kxxxx Kxx xx, a hand which wants to play in 3NT but doesn't hold ♣ stopper.

You can of course switch the meaning of 3♠ to ask for stopper. It seems like going backwards though as it's additional memory work and checking for ♣ stopper seems to be more important on this auction anyway (because it's more likely they will run 5 tricks in ♣ than in ♠).

[vuroth]

I really, really want 3♠ to ask for a ♠ stopper. At MPs, it just becomes too difficult to get to 3NT when it's right, and stay away when it's wrong.

It's not like pulling 3NT to 4♠ wouldn't make it clear, if I actually had spades.

At the table, I'm bidding 3 hearts. Partner should be bidding 3NT with 2 hearts and a spade stopper, I'm thinking.

[billw55]

jillybean, on May 21 2010, 08:50 AM, said:

3nt, yuk! Im not as worried about missing a ♥ fit as I am a nt/♦ slam.

Where I come from 3♦ is limited

Let's give partner six solid diamonds, and also one of his small clubs is not a loser. So now he has six other cards, and needs to find 5 tricks. It seems like asking alot even for a jump rebid.

3♠ asking for a stopper would be perfect - on this hand. But is that agreement effective enough in general to have it?

[wyman]

If 3S shows, I will bid 3N instead.

[pooltuna]

billw55, on May 21 2010, 10:45 AM, said:

jillybean, on May 21 2010, 08:50 AM, said:

3nt, yuk!  Im not as worried about missing a ♥ fit as I am a nt/♦ slam.

Where I come from 3♦ is limited

Let's give partner six solid diamonds, and also one of his small clubs is not a loser. So now he has six other cards, and needs to find 5 tricks. It seems like asking alot even for a jump rebid.

3♠ asking for a stopper would be perfect - on this hand. But is that agreement effective enough in general to have it?

If you are going to play 3NT, a 3♠ call IMO shows 5♥ and is a game choice for the opener

[quiddity]

It doesn't seem right to hide such good trump support even when playing matchpoints. I want to raise diamonds, just not sure whether to bid 4♦ or 4♣. The cuebid shows something specific which might help partner pick the right contract, but it also overstates the hand; the ♥Q is possibly worthless.

These raises do not preclude playing in NT for me - partner can bid 4NT to play if he has the right hand.

[billw55]

quiddity, on May 21 2010, 02:53 PM, said:

It doesn't seem right to hide such good trump support even when playing matchpoints. I want to raise diamonds, just not sure whether to bid 4♦ or 4♣. The cuebid shows something specific which might help partner pick the right contract, but it also overstates the hand; the ♥Q is possibly worthless.

These raises do not preclude playing in NT for me - partner can bid 4NT to play if he has the right hand.

Are you sure that partner will understand 4♣ as a cue? We haven't agreed to a suit yet.

[kfay]

Was given this problem earlier today.

For me, I think a diamond slam is being quite optimistic at matchpoints. I have no way to investigate this without giving up on 3NT and, most likely, 4♥ as well.

3♠ shows. For those of you who are like, 'wtf? 3♠ asks, obv!'... what do you do when your black suits are reversed? You can't do everything and that's a fact. It'd be nice to be playing 3♠ asks on this hand, but that's definitely (in my mind, because it's not natural) non-standard and I wouldn't assume it playing with any of my usual partners (with whom I haven't explicity discussed this situation) because it's not what all the genii play either.

Anyway I would just bid 3NT. If my heart spots were a tad better I'd bid 3♥. As it is partner will often raise on Hx and my initial reaction is that this isn't good for me.

On the other hand partner might have 3 hearts, so... maybe I'm shooting myself in the foot. Of course that's the BW death hand, and we can see looking at our hand why everything is so tough now if partner does hold 9+ cards in the reds.

But if partner has Qxx of spades and Hxx of hearts it's possible that I'll be making 3NT and 4♥ goes down anyway.

BTW, if you play that 4♦ is just invitational that means you must play 4♣ as a totally artificial ♦ slamtry. Totally reasonable to me, but I wouldn't assume I played that way. I don't invite with 4m in general: 1) because who wants to play there and 2) because it's often very difficult to judge what I need to go on. For instance on this auction... how is partner supposed to know what's good and what's not? So we bid 1♥, big whoop. A benefit to playing 4♦ this way, though, is that partner can bid 4♥ and we'll play it there. So maybe I'm wrong. But thinking about it I think that even after a forcing 4d partner should be able to offer 4h. In which case I think it's just a guess between 4d and 3n.

[georgeac]

i bid 5♦, it appears this is way off base. oh well.

[mike777]

jillybean, on May 21 2010, 07:39 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

uncontested auction
P:1♦
1♥:3♦
?

---

What is your bid?
For those who play minorwood/same suit keycard, what is 4♦ here ?
And for those who play kickback, what is 4♥?

ya 3nt ..second option 3h....

As for your kickback question......I think 4h has to be kickback......you are a passed hand.....pard can be void in hearts.....

to be on the safeside if playing kickback ..just bid 4d with lots of d.......forcing.... now pard can bid 4h kickback....
---------------------


this sort of thing needs to be discussed but our general guideline is a jump is going to be kickback.......with the kickback suit..in this case hearts.....bid and rebid the suit at a lower level.....

so bid 3h...forcing here..with real hearts....jump to 4d and make pard bid kickback or jump to 4h as kickback....in general.......

[chasetb]

kfay, on May 21 2010, 04:19 PM, said:

3♠ shows.  For those of you who are like, 'wtf?  3♠ asks, obv!'... what do you do when your black suits are reversed?  You can't do everything and that's a fact.  It'd be nice to be playing 3♠ asks on this hand, but that's definitely (in my mind, because it's not natural) non-standard and I wouldn't assume it playing with any of my usual partners (with whom I haven't explicity discussed this situation) because it's not what all the genii play either.

Danny Kleinman suggests that on the auction 1♦-1♥; 3♦, that 3♠ should be artificial, saying you have one of the unbid suits stopped, and for partner to bid 3NT if he has at least one of the black suits stopped (New Major Forcing, he calls it). This works the same way if 1♠ is bid instead of 1♥; 3♥ then does the same thing. Many times (s)he will in fact have the other suit stopped. If neither suit is stopped, opener bids 4♣ showing 0-2 ♥ support, and 4♦ as 3 card support.

[1eyedjack]

One advantage of using 3S as asking rather than telling is that it gives the opps the opportunity to double for lead. Advantage??? I hear you ask? Well I think so. It alerts you to the suit being open, gives you the bidding space to confirm or deny a guard between you, and there was a fair chance that opening leader was going to lead the suit without the double.

[mike777]

no