[phil_20686]

Scoring: IMP

P 3♥ X 4♥
?

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Whats your bid?

[Free]

Dbl

[jjbrr]

Double

[gwnn]

x

[OleBerg]

Even though I have the agreement that X shows 4 spades here, it is my bid nonetheless.

[Hanoi5]

I voted 4NT, but it might not be our hand at the 5 level. That's the reason for the double, right?

[gwnn]

Yes, exactly. The hope is that partner will pass with flat enough hands that nobody is making anything.

[phil_20686]

gwnn, on May 25 2010, 10:32 AM, said:

Yes, exactly. The hope is that partner will pass with flat enough hands that nobody is making anything.

I dont want to influence the poll, but isnt the point here that partner normally already has a flat ish hand with at most two hearts. Its pretty hard for him to remove this isnt it? WHile dble is t/o orientated, are you saying you wouldn't dble here with 4-3-4-2 and an 11 count say? Feels like this must be very close to a 4N bid.

EDIT:

If this had come round to me 3h x p ? I'm pretty sure that I would have bid 4N here - and been comfortably that this was the majority opinion, so it seems hard for me to justify that I shouldn't do it now. Well I might actually bid 4h which shows this hand. But the point is I would be happy to be in game, and I'm not sure that these slow values contribute much to taking tricks in defense vs a preempt and raise.

[gwnn]

I don't want to influence the poll either but partner should remove it with 5 spades or a heart void or a strikingly non-quacky hand or many hands with 54 in the minors. I play this double by advancer as value showing, usually 2 places to play, sometimes just a hand that doesn't have a better bid.

[Hanoi5]

Would you say the ♣K is neccessary for a 4NT bid?

[gwnn]

You mean KQJx in clubs? I would still double with that hand and the same shape, I have too many stuff everywhere, I am happy to defend 4Hx if partner thinks so. I would not double 4H with this shape if I thought we had slam however since the penalties tend not to compensate for slam very well (they are OK compensation for game). At imps especially, however, I really don't like bidding some silly game and going down, I am OK with getting some plus score. Maybe at mp's 4nt is best? Who knows?

I would be happy to bid 4NT with 55 in the minors.

[phil_20686]

If the black suit holdins were K, K would you be now closer to bid or closer to dble? I think its the dangerous QJ QJ holdings that pit the odds against dble. If i had K K i would be foar more confident of taking 300 or indeed beating 4h.

[gwnn]

I don't know what you are asking exactly but just to be clear I am not doubling for penalties and I am not bidding 4N as a save. If I bid 4NT with something like this (and I will readily admit that 4NT is not a terrible bid, just one that I would not consider best), it would be because I consider that more often than not at least one of 5m and 4H would make. A responsive double is similar to 4NT except that some of the hands where neither 5m nor 4H make get filtered out and we are a little happier. Of course, sometimes 4H makes (or it goes down 1 and we have 400) and we get sadder. I agree with you that x is more attractive than 4N when the quacks turn into kings but I don't think there is a large difference since now 5m is also more likely to make.

[Jlall]

Hanoi5, on May 25 2010, 10:20 AM, said:

I voted 4NT, but it might not be our hand at the 5 level. That's the reason for the double, right?

We might also belong in spades, and we might also get to the wrong minor if we bid 4N. But yes mainly just that we might want to defend 4H X