Issue with support doubles
#1
Posted 2010-July-23, 02:46
a. 1♦ - (pass) - 1♥ - (1♠)
b. 1♦ - (pass) - 1♠ - (2♥)
How do I show
1. 18-19 balanced (provided I play 15-17 NT) with a stopper
2. 18-19 balanced without a stopper
3. Four card support and 18-19 balanced
4. Support and an unbalanced hand with good playing strength but without a lot of points
In auction a., if 1NT is played as 18-19 balanced with spade stop (is this common?), then perhaps 2NT could be used to show a good hand with support and 2♠ could show a strong hand without clear direction (including 18-19 balanced without a stopper). A jump to 4♥ would show an unbalanced hand with good playing strength.
In auction b. this doesn't work since there is not enough room. I suppose it is possible to play 4♠ as either 18-19 balanced with four card spade support or as an unbalanced hand with good playing strength, but is that really a good idea?
Searching for articles about support doubles, I haven't found any description on how good players handle these hands.
#2
Posted 2010-July-23, 04:48
In both sequences, I think it's important to be able to distinguish different strengths with four-card support. I want to be able to raise to the three-level on a 5431 11-count, and on a 4333 18-count.
Without much discussion I'd assume:
- Cue-bid is 4-card support and a good hand
- 2NT is 18-19 balanced
- Double is 3-card support, or 18-19 balanced without a stopper
I think your suggestion of using 1NT as 18-19 is a good one (unless it's nobody vul at pairs), but nobody seems to do it.
Some other solutions to part or all of the problem:
- In (b) rebid 3NT with 18-19 balanced, use 2NT to show support, and use a cue-bid to ask for a stopper (either balanced or not).
- In (b), play transfers from 2NT upwards, with 3♦ covering all 18-19 balanced. Responder can complete the transfer to deny a stopper.
- Play a 2♦ opening as 18-19 balanced, so that you can use 2NT as 4-card support and a cue-bid as a stop-ask in an unbalanced hand.
- Open 1♣ on all 18-19 balanced, then in (a) play takeout doubles and support reverses. The takeout double can include the hands without a stopper.
- Don't play support doubles.
This post has been edited by gnasher: 2010-July-23, 04:49
#3
Posted 2010-July-24, 11:50
#4
Posted 2010-July-24, 11:58
1. With 18-19 balanced and a stopper, bid 2NT in both auctions.
2. With 18-19 balanced and no stopper (and only two-card support for partner), cuebid the opponents suit in both auctions. This shows a strong hand with no clear direction.
3. With 4-card support and 18-19 balanced, bid three or four of partner's major depending somewhat on style and the quality of your hand.
4. With 4-card support and an unbalanced hand, bid two or three of partner's major. The two-level raise is a bit "stronger" than without competition due to promising four-card support (i.e. partner should push a bit more over it especially with five trumps).
There is a slight issue that the range of a jump raise is large (including shapely hands with very mild extras and also balanced 18s which are very flat). However, this problem exists without competition also. The alternatives are basically: (1) Accept it, figuring that the "loser count" of the two hand types for 3M is similar and maybe this is enough (2) Push to 4M with 18-19 balanced, even though this may be too high on occasion especially if you respond light (3) Rebid 2M on many of the shapely hands, possibly missing an occasional light fitting game but also gaining when partner has a lousy hand and you get to play 2M instead of 3M.
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#5
Posted 2010-July-24, 12:31
Bende, on Jul 24 2010, 06:50 PM, said:
It's certainly not a widely held opinion on this forum.
It seems a rather extreme reaction anyway. Support doubles, used sensibly, gain frequently by making it easier to judge how high to compete. If you don't play them, you gain the ability to double on strong hands that don't have three-card support and don't have a stop, but such hands are comparatively rare.
#6
Posted 2010-July-24, 15:07
gnasher, on Jul 25 2010, 06:31 AM, said:
Bende, on Jul 24 2010, 06:50 PM, said:
It's certainly not a widely held opinion on this forum.
It seems a rather extreme reaction anyway. Support doubles, used sensibly, gain frequently by making it easier to judge how high to compete. If you don't play them, you gain the ability to double on strong hands that don't have three-card support and don't have a stop, but such hands are comparatively rare.
Clearly that is not the only gain.
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#7
Posted 2010-July-24, 16:09
Quote
Would you mind making it even clearer?
#8
Posted 2010-July-24, 16:15
Bende, on Jul 24 2010, 12:50 PM, said:
That opinion is probably in clear minority here, but of course that is just my gut feeling. I find support doubles very good, and as far as I can see, they fit fine in a natural system. Why not?
#9
Posted 2010-July-24, 16:52
gnasher, on Jul 25 2010, 10:09 AM, said:
Quote
Would you mind making it even clearer?
Well I imagine for most people the choice is not between
1. Support doubles
2. Doubles to show strong hands without a stopper
The second option being only one of several hand types that will be put into the double. The exact hand types will vary from partnership to partnership.
We don't play support doubles. Our double is takeout. It caters to some minimum hands that you might make a support double with, some similar hands but with only two cards in openers suit and many stronger hands. Since double is the most flexible option we can usually later determine more precisely the hand type and by removing a wide range of hands from other actions our alternative actions become more precise.
Most of the time this is in a weak no trump structure with a specialized bid for for 18-19 balanced. The considerations will be different but similar in other styles.
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#10
Posted 2010-July-24, 17:53
Original poster said:
2. 18-19 balanced without a stopper
3. Four card support and 18-19 balanced
it seems unlikely that he's gong to care much what you do
Cascade said:
especially if you believe that
Cascade said:
#11
Posted 2010-July-24, 17:57
#12
Posted 2010-July-24, 18:10
gnasher, on Jul 25 2010, 11:53 AM, said:
Original poster said:
2. 18-19 balanced without a stopper
3. Four card support and 18-19 balanced
it seems unlikely that he's gong to care much what you do
Cascade said:
especially if you believe that
Cascade said:
Similarly my initial post did not rely on the structure that I happen to play. In fact we do play a 15-17 in 4th seat and even in that situation have not been tempted to play support doubles.
My contention is simply that a well designed system that uses double as something other than support is not going to be based on the double (the most economical call) showing something as specific as 18-19 balanced with no stopper. That is there must be other gains from using double for other hand types.
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#13
Posted 2010-July-25, 02:26
Cascade, on Jul 25 2010, 01:10 AM, said:
I didn't say that double should show "18-19 balanced with no stopper". What I said was
me said:
With either method, a 3154 15-count can double. Support doubles add the ability to double on a hand with 3-card support which isn't suitable for a takeout double. Takeout doubles add the ability to double on a hand that doesn't have three-card support, is strong enough to make a takeout double even without 3-card support, and isn't suitable for any other action (such as bidding notrumps).
#14
Posted 2010-July-25, 02:30
You have listed some here.
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#15
Posted 2010-July-25, 02:34
Cascade, on Jul 25 2010, 09:30 AM, said:
In reply to my post that didn't say that doubling with 18-19 balanced was the only gain.
#16
Posted 2010-July-25, 02:38
1. b. 3NT
2. cuebid
(for all of those answers you can and usually should double first with 3 card support, planning to take the above action on the next round)
3. cuebid as well, planning to show your support next
4. jump raise
While not perfect I don't see most of these auctions as problems. I understand that the point of this thread is to suggest the double could be used to relieve the pressure on these hand types but I love support doubles and think bidding suffers greatly without them most of the time. It gives you a very inexpensive action to describe a very important feature that is quite common and occurs in a wide range of hands.
#17
Posted 2010-July-25, 02:52
gnasher, on Jul 25 2010, 08:34 PM, said:
Cascade, on Jul 25 2010, 09:30 AM, said:
In reply to my post that didn't say that doubling with 18-19 balanced was the only gain.
What you did is say that support doubles gain frequently compared with this hand type which was rare. Sorry if I misunderstood but this certainly seems to me to give the impression that the alternative use of double rarely gained. I was just trying to draw attention to the fact that there are other gains.
gnasher said:
The emphases are mine.
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#18
Posted 2010-July-25, 03:51
#19
Posted 2010-July-26, 10:10
They were invented by Meckwell to avoid getting to too many 3-3 trump fits!
What is baby oil made of?
#20
Posted 2010-July-26, 10:30
jdonn, on Jul 25 2010, 02:38 AM, said:
This, of course, is exactly why so many others like support doubles. Certainly valid.
On the other side, support doubles give the opponents very inexpensive tools (redouble, raise, new suit, and cue) which are also important, common, and occurring in a wide range of hands. This doesn't mean the "support double" people are wrong. But I don't think the ones who don't use them come out on the losing end of the competitive situations as often as the ones who use them say.
Was that last sentence a triple negative, or just a double negative followed by a negative?