[bluecalm]

1NT - pass - pass dbl
pass- 2X - dbl

what if x is ♣/♦/♥/♠

I thought it's pretty obvious but recently my friend surprised me with his treatment and he said some other pretty good players play this way.

What's your treatment ? What do you think is expert standard ?

[gnasher]

Takeout, regardless of the suit. There's some expectation that opener will leave it in, so it should include some defence.

[mikeh]

gnasher, on May 17 2010, 06:47 PM, said:

Takeout, regardless of the suit. There's some expectation that opener will leave it in, so it should include some defence.

agreed

[Phil]

10 years ago I played this as "they stepped in it".

If the double is penalty, I think it still make sense to play it as penalty. RHO didn't think he could beat 1N - why shouldn't we think (strongly) he can't make 2♥?

If double is artificial, I would prefer double is takeout.

[jjbrr]

t/o.

I think Phil's right if dbl is penalty.

[ArtK78]

I have always played this as penalty with good results.

I am sure an argument can be made for this double being takeout, but I was willing to play in 1NT before the opponents balanced so I don't see the need for catering to an opponent's action so that I can find some other place to play the hand.

I have always felt that the opponents are more likely to make a mistake in acting over our 1NT opening and that we should not look for another place to play unless our action is clear. This is certainly true when my side opens a weak NT (especially since my weak NT is usually 10-12). But it is often true when my side opens a strong NT.

[aguahombre]

Phil, on May 17 2010, 06:12 PM, said:

10 years ago I played this as "they stepped in it".

If the double is penalty, I think it still make sense to play it as penalty. RHO didn't think he could beat 1N - why shouldn't we think (strongly) he can't make 2♥?

If double is artificial, I would prefer double is takeout.

Yes, need more information. Also would, as Art suggests, like to know the 1NT range. If it is 10-12, I need to shut up and just listen to somebody less ignorant about handling that range.

If 15-17, what Phil says makes perfect sense. If the balancing double showed specific suits, however --then other takeouts are available, and my double would be sort of half and half --values and tolerance for the other suits.

[spotlight7]

Hi:

I play the doubles as takeout and I get more penalties or so it seems.

If you have a penalty double, don't you think that partner is short and he will normally make a takeout double.

Now we double for takeout and partner passes 'if' he has a penalty type hand.

Regards,
Robert

[bluecalm]

NT is 15-17;
dbl is 4-3 or 4-4 in majors 10+hcp;

[cherdanno]

bluecalm, on May 18 2010, 10:59 AM, said:

NT is 15-17;
dbl is 4-3 or 4-4 in majors 10+hcp;

In that case the second double is penalty.

[mgoetze]

cherdanno, on May 18 2010, 05:26 PM, said:

bluecalm, on May 18 2010, 10:59 AM, said:

NT is 15-17;
dbl is 4-3 or 4-4 in majors 10+hcp;

In that case the second double is penalty.

I can generalize this: anytime my opponents play obviously silly defenses against our 1NT, all doubles are for penalty.

[655321]

mgoetze, on May 18 2010, 12:30 PM, said:

I can generalize this: anytime my opponents play obviously silly defenses against our 1NT, all doubles are for penalty.

Sounds like an application of gwnn's law: http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...ndpost&p=412164

[peachy]

I don't know what expert standard is. I would have a max pass and ability to either play or defend. It is like 75% penalty but opener can overrule with a five card suit or something.

[MFA]

gnasher, on May 18 2010, 01:47 AM, said:

Takeout, regardless of the suit. There's some expectation that opener will leave it in, so it should include some defence.

A vote for this.
I could add that responder also has the option of bidding 2M on a fourcarder with an unbalanced hand. Opener could then scramble.

Going plus is our primary concern here. Conceding a partscore when we could make our own partscore is as costly as missing out on a penalty double of 2 down. We won't get rich by selling out to their 8 or 9- card fits at the two-level.

[hanp]

Takeout.

[Phil]

Some good posters supporting takeout (assuming the double is penalty), although I'm not convinced. Let's try to understand them.

3244 would be the prototypical pattern I would think. What other shapes would be appropriate?

[peachy]

spotlight7, on May 18 2010, 10:51 AM, said:

Hi:

I play the doubles as takeout and I get more penalties or so it seems.

If you have a penalty double, don't you think that partner is short and he will normally make a takeout double.

Now we double for takeout and partner passes 'if' he has a penalty type hand.

Regards,
Robert

Let us assume it goes
1NT (P) P (Dbl)
P (2X) ?
and I Pass [instead of Dbl as shown in the OP]. And the reason for passing is that I have a penalty double of 2X but cannot double because Dbl is Takeout.

How likely is it that 1NT opener re-opens his balanced mediocre hand with a Dbl opposite a partner who passed twice? How likely is it that partner knows we have the majority of HCP? Or how likely is it that he knows I have a penalty Dbl of 2X? I would say very unlikely.

Which is why "takeout" seems expensive because we have no way to show ownership of the hand and no way to show a penalty double of 2X, at the cost of having Takeout Double available. If someone can demonstrate by sims or whatever clever ways there are that Takeout is better, I am all ears.

[Tomi2]

peachy, on May 19 2010, 11:54 AM, said:

Which is why "takeout" seems expensive because we have no way to show ownership of the hand and no way to show a penalty double of 2X, at the cost of having Takeout Double available. If someone can demonstrate by sims or whatever clever ways there are that Takeout is better, I am all ears.

doesn't a takeout double also cover the msg that we have the point majority?

and what do you do with 7 points 42(43) if they come to 2hearts and your double would be penalty... that way you also have no way to sho the ownership of the hand

the information about the ownership can be send in both styles but both on only hands, that have the required shape for the ... double

[ArtK78]

Tomi2, on May 19 2010, 12:02 PM, said:

peachy, on May 19 2010, 11:54 AM, said:

Which is why "takeout" seems expensive because we have no way to show ownership of the hand and no way to show a penalty double of 2X, at the cost of having Takeout Double available.  If someone can demonstrate by sims or whatever clever ways there are that Takeout is better, I am all ears.

doesn't a takeout double also cover the msg that we have the point majority?

and what do you do with 7 points 42(43) if they come to 2hearts and your double would be penalty... that way you also have no way to sho the ownership of the hand

the information about the ownership can be send in both styles but both on only hands, that have the required shape for the ... double

That is not a "takeout" double. That is a point showing double (sometimes referred to as an optional double, and sometimes by other names).

Takeout doubles are supposed to be taken out. In some instances, they do not show much in the way of values - such as this one. They are a means of competing. Presumably, the doubler has some values or else he would not want to compete. But it does not denote ownership of the hand.

[aguahombre]

Tomi2, on May 19 2010, 11:02 AM, said:

and what do you do with 7 points 42(43) if they come to 2hearts and your double would be penalty... that way you also have no way to sho the ownership of the hand

2S. two places to play, with only 4S (no xfer, last round). We can't play it in 2NT, because that would be a scramble for the correct minor.

This is my answer to "if double would be penalty", and what we do in partnerships where double would be penalty. Not advocating one choice or the other about the double. But Pass would deny ownership of the hand