BBO Discussion Forums: penalty double - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

penalty double

#1 User is offline   AceOfHeart 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 104
  • Joined: 2004-February-04

Posted 2004-July-23, 09:25

What actually is penalty dbl?

Actually i ask this question cos i was directorised for making a pen dbl. The directer ruled that my hand is unsuitable for making a pen dbl and hence ruled against me.

The bidding

all non vul

south east north west
1C 1H X* 2H***
X** P 2S P
P X all pass

X* promise 4 card spades
X** show 3 card spade support
2H*** 8-10 pts
I was east and was holding an opening hand with singleton spade. I made a dbl here intending it to be penalty.Both me and my partner explained it as pen(we played all dbls after support as pen, playing with screens).The declarer placed me with long spades and misplayed the hand going 2Sx-5. However the director ruled that in this seq, a dbl is never penalty, adjusting the score to 2Sx-1.

My question is if by agreement we agree to play pen dbls, can i make a pen dbl with any hand i want? and isit against the laws of contract bridge to play pen dbls at 2 level(should my hand be taken into consideration)?

My hand was QAQxxxxxxA10xx
Make love, not war
0

#2 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2004-July-23, 09:49

The only way the director could rule this way is he doesn't bellieve your description of the meaning of your double. If your double is suppose to be, by agreement, penalty, and you choose for a very good reason (or a very bizzare one) to make a penalty double with a stiff in their suit at the two level, it is not up to him to question your bridge judgement.

If my double was penalty here, I would make a penalty double too... why? One opponent announced 4 spades, the other announced 3. How many do I have? one. Simple math, my parnter has five spades, and I have a good defensive hand otherwise. So from your point of view, even with a singleton, the double is an excellent bet. However, if my double was optional of if my double was takeout, I would still make it here, expecting my partner with five spades to pass.

So after agreeing with your bridge judgement that double for penalty will work wonders here, if you play after a fit is found, all doubles are penalty, the director probably wondered why your partner, looking at five spades and willing to play a forcing game, didn't directly double 2. Your partners bridge logic might be that he had no defense for a run out to 3 perhaps.

I would have filed an appeal, and found witness that know your treatment on such auctions (would be great if you had similar hands from same event where you doubled for penalty or didn't double for takeout), because it seems the director simply didn't believe your explaination (he is basically calling you and your partner liars with this ruling based upon the appearance of this one hand.... but there are solid bridge judgement that make this auction "real").

Ben
--Ben--

#3 User is offline   luis 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,143
  • Joined: 2003-May-02
  • Location:Buenos Aires, Argentina

Posted 2004-July-23, 09:55

I can't believe a director really ruled this. I found it very hard to believe your report because even a very bad director can't rule in this way.
If the opponents really announced that they were in a 4-3 fit then it really doesn't matter if your double is for penalties or not. Let me explain it.
If your dbl is penalties then you may have 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 trumps since you know they have 7 and you know how many trumps your pd has. So you can double for penalties based on what you have in spades or what pd has in spades.
If your double is not for penalties then pd is allowed to leave it if he thinks so.
Even if there's missinformation there's no damage since declarer can't pretend to get any information when the trump position is known to both defenders.
Horrible ruling, horrible, terrible.

If you can present a note so the TD can get a suspension or something like that you have to do it.
The legend of the black octogon.
0

#4 User is offline   mikestar 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 913
  • Joined: 2003-August-18
  • Location:California, USA

Posted 2004-July-23, 09:57

You had a perfectly legal partnership agreement properly explained to the ooponents. The only rationale I can see for the director's ruling is that looking at your spade shortness he assumed that you had really intended to double for takeout and had misrepresented your agreement.

This is false reasoning on this part and the ruling is incorrect. An analogous situtation:

(1S)-P-(2S)-P-(3S)-P-(4S)-X

This is a penalty double for everyone on earth and most Martians. A good player may have five trumps or may be void--let declarer guess. No one questions the legality of this double and no one should have questioned yours--the penalty double on trump shortness when the opponents trump length is limited is based on a logical inference that a good intermediate is quite capable of, and an expert would make wtihout even a momentary thought.

Great bidding victimized by God-awful directing.
0

#5 User is offline   AceOfHeart 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 104
  • Joined: 2004-February-04

Posted 2004-July-23, 10:46

Actually i seldom post director decision against me. But this decision i feel is the most bizzare that happened to me. The fact that it occurs in an regional tourney (PABF), actually make me very sad about the standard of bridge directing there. Me actually playing dbls meaning what it actually means and my opps playing dbls meaning other things and i am directorised. The director even minus my team VPs for convention disruption, what ever that means. Any way i did appeal and got the score adjusted to 2Sx-2 but still i feel it should be down 5..............

Any way the reason why my p never dbl with his 9 count and 5 spades is that i may overcall with maybe 6-8 pts and they may even have game.

My partner hand KJ10xx Kxx Qx xxx

Any way my convention card never state we played pen dbls after this seq which could be my fault, however when i dbled my opp on the same side asked and i wrote that it is a pen dbl, my partner on the other side also wrote pen when asked , which could prove that we didnt have any misinfo
Make love, not war
0

#6 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,760
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2004-July-23, 14:26

AceOfHeart, on Jul 24 2004, 03:25 AM, said:

I was east and was holding an opening hand with singleton spade. I made a dbl here intending it to be penalty.Both me and my partner explained it as pen(we played all dbls after support as pen, playing with screens).The declarer placed me with long spades and misplayed the hand going 2Sx-5. However the director ruled that in this seq, a dbl is never penalty, adjusting the score to 2Sx-1.

This is nonsense. You can play penalty doubles in whatever sequence you want. This is the purpose of the alert regulations so you can tell the opponents when your double is for penalties when they might think it is for takeout.

It seems to me that your opponents misunderstood penalties here and that is their problem after they have had an unusually informative auction that told you they were in a 4-3 fit. They should use their own bridge judgement and realize that this enables the opponents to make penalty doubles on a wide range of hands. Just as it appears you used your bridge judgement to double for penalties when you knew that your partner had the trumps.

Quote

My question is if by agreement we agree to play pen dbls, can i make a pen dbl with any hand i want?


Yes. In some situations you might need to alert the opponents (tell them) that your double is not necessarily based on trumps. In this particular situation I do not think there is any obligation as it is just common sense.

Quote

and isit against the laws of contract bridge to play pen dbls at 2 level


No. You just need to alert which is what you did.

Quote

(should my hand be taken into consideration)?


No unless there is doubt as to your agreement. The way you have explained this situation it does not seem that there is doubt as to your agreement - you both independently described this as a penalty double.

You can't be expected to write every convoluted sequence on your convention card.

I think your opponents were asking for something that they were not entitled to. They had been out done by their own methods. I am not sure why the director bought into this.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#7 User is offline   jtfanclub 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,937
  • Joined: 2004-June-05

Posted 2004-July-23, 19:57

Something is wrong here.

The double you described couldn't possibly be takout. It could be action ("Partner, I don't know where this should be, but two spades undoubled isn't it") or penalty, but you've agreed on a suit. What would a takeout double mean here? Take out to what?

There's something you're not telling us. I'm guessing that your partner didn't alert or announce the double (and the opponents didn't ask at the time), and your director believes that all penalty doubles below 2NT should be alerted. A dumb rule, but at least a consistent one. Otherwise, this director was either horribly confused or horribly wrong.
0

#8 User is offline   Flame 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,085
  • Joined: 2004-March-26
  • Location:Israel

Posted 2004-July-23, 20:30

If you were playing without screens, and your partner explained it as penalty, but you dont have a convention card to support your partner, then the director looking at your hand ,which looked to him like a takeout decided that the explanation was wrong and , that you ment it as takeout but only later turn over to penalty to support your partner and avoid punishment.
If you have a CC about it, or if it was screen (where you explained your own call) the director can never change the score like that.
Anyway the way you explained what he said make no sense, oviously there is nothing like , no P doubles in a situation and each partnership is intitle to play as they like, and in this specific sequence many play penalty.
0

#9 User is offline   AceOfHeart 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 104
  • Joined: 2004-February-04

Posted 2004-July-23, 21:31

jtfanclub, on Jul 23 2004, 08:57 PM, said:

Something is wrong here.

The double you described couldn't possibly be takout.  It could be action ("Partner, I don't know where this should be, but two spades undoubled isn't it") or penalty, but you've agreed on a suit.  What would a takeout double mean here?  Take out to what?


The director thinks it is a maxim overcall dbl or a optional dbl(both dbl didnt appear on my cc, heck i dont even know whats a maxim overcall dbl),but not a pen dbl. And obviously the dbl is not t/o for obvious reason

jtfanclub, on Jul 23 2004, 08:57 PM, said:

There's something you're not telling us.  I'm guessing that your partner didn't alert or announce the double (and the opponents didn't ask at the time), and your director believes that all penalty doubles below 2NT should be alerted.  A dumb rule, but at least a consistent one.  Otherwise, this director was either horribly confused or horribly wrong.

My partner never announced the dbl,however the opp did ask at that time before he bid(playing wih screens) and my partner explained as pen. the opp on my side also ask and got the same explaination
Make love, not war
0

#10 User is offline   mikestar 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 913
  • Joined: 2003-August-18
  • Location:California, USA

Posted 2004-July-24, 00:06

There was a failure to alert, perhaps. But it caused no damaage as the opponents asked before bidding and were given identical info on both sides of the screen.

In essence the opponents asserted the the penalty double is an illegal convention in this position and the director agreed. This is indefensible, not least because a penalty double is not a convention. Just as no convention regulation can deny you the right to bid what you think you can make, neither can it deny you the right to double what you think you can defeat.

All that can be required is accurate disclosure of partnership methods and this was given. The director's decision would have to have been better than it was to qualify as obscene.
0

#11 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,404
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2004-July-24, 07:04

Opponents have stated their will of playing at level 2, and they have told all the world they only have 7 trumps, I can´t imagine a single bidding sequence where a double isn´t to penalty opponents for their ridicoulous bidding.
0

#12 User is offline   Flame 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,085
  • Joined: 2004-March-26
  • Location:Israel

Posted 2004-July-24, 07:38

If there were screen, this decision is 100% wrong, and you should do anything you can to get this director out of work.
0

#13 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,760
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2004-July-24, 18:21

It is a bit harsh to try and put someone out of work for one mistake. For me getting this director to see his mistake and learn from it is more constructive than trying to put him out of work.

Of course if there is a pattern of bad decisions and the director has shown unwillingness to change his ways then the game would be better off without him.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#14 User is offline   bridgeboy 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 126
  • Joined: 2004-February-11

Posted 2004-July-25, 10:59

Hi all,

I was at the tournament in question and i think I should add some facts to be fair.
(AceOfHeart is from my country so no doubts whose side I'm rooting for :lol: )

They were competing in a youth category hence there might be some concerns in that they did not know how to alert properly. Afterall, the double could be one that shows extras and both decide it to be penalty-orientated? (No doubt looking at their hands, they saw a big penalty). I think the director (and at the end the appeals committee) did not read too much into both sides alerting as penalty.

One reason is that they did not explicitly write they play low level penalty doubles in their CC. I do not think such a treatment( penalty doubles of partscores at 2 level) is so common?

Another point that sticks out is that in the past 3 days of competition ( they played around 100 boards, i suppose) there was very little (no?) signs of low level doubled contracts defended by this pair. Hence the logical assumption that they are not really playing low level penalty doubles but just 'card-showing' maybe with a strong tendancy to convert.

The pair claims they do not play 'maximal double' or 'optional' but they also did not agree to play 'low level penalty doubles' hence it makes things a bit harder for the director then. On paper, there was no misinformation but there exist a very real possiblity that both decide to treat the double as penalty then (hence alerting as so). Another relevant point might be that I do not think they have prior discussion as to what double will be in such auctions( opponents settling in a known 7 card fit), hence even if they both arrive at the same conclusion at te table, might the opps have a right to know it as 'undiscussed'?

I give these information as i do know this pair a bit, however some explanations might be wrong (feel free to correct)

Lastly , I must add that the way the declarer played the hand, I think he screwed it up, even if he assumed the doubler has trump stack, there is no excuse for the play. Hence, any misinformation did not hurt at all, making the ruling a little weird( to say the least) :)
0

#15 User is offline   Flame 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,085
  • Joined: 2004-March-26
  • Location:Israel

Posted 2004-July-25, 14:21

Wather a double is penalty oriented or not , is not primery set by the level of the contract, i never heard of an agrement such as low level penalty doubles.
I can explain why it make sense to play such double as penalty but this is irelevent.
The point here , there were screen, and the double was explained at both sides as penalty double (or even if not asked about) , this is it, no need for more then that, and any director should understand this.

About my comment of taking his work, maybe i was too agressive but if a director say, you are not allowed to play p double at low level, it doesnt mean he is a bad director, its more like he got not enough skills to ever be a good director.
0

#16 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,760
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2004-July-25, 15:40

Quote

I think the director (and at the end the appeals committee) did not read too much into both sides alerting as penalty.


Why bother to alert then if the officials are not going to believe you.

Quote

One reason is that they did not explicitly write they play low level penalty doubles in their CC. I do not think such a treatment( penalty doubles of partscores at 2 level) is so common?


Where do you write this natural treatment on your convention card. There are so many possibilities in convoluted auctions that you cannot write them all on your convention card.

Quote

On paper, there was no misinformation but there exist a very real possiblity that both decide to treat the double as penalty then (hence alerting as so). Another relevant point might be that I do not think they have prior discussion as to what double will be in such auctions( opponents settling in a known 7 card fit), hence even if they both arrive at the same conclusion at te table, might the opps have a right to know it as 'undiscussed'?


No way. The fact that they both explained the bid the same way. Especially the player making a penalty double with a singleton suggests that they have an implicit agreement that they properly disclosed.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#17 User is offline   gabika73 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 38
  • Joined: 2003-February-15
  • Location:Szeged, Hungary

Posted 2004-July-26, 03:11

Double should show in this sequence a hand with defensive values.
You have bid a suit, and partner has supproted that. So you do have a fit.
If you want to compete, you can always bid your suit.
Furthermore, you have 3 other bids for invitational hands (2nt, 3m).
All the above sequences say: partner, we have to play this hand, I have an offensive hand.
While double says: partner, I have something extra, but I have doubt about who should declare this hand. I have great defensive potential based upon the bidding so far, so 2s doubled can be the best contract for us.

Director was kind of wrong. Declarer took a line based upon a surfacial (is that a word?) analysis of the auction. It could have worked out well for him, but it did not.

I remember one of our doubles, when declarer, after a telling precision sequence was declaring 4S. Their distribution and strength was clear from the auction, so my partner with a stiff spade doubled them, knowing I should have an opening hand with 4 spades. With normal line, declarer would get home, but based her play on the double: 2 or 3 down....
gabika
0

#18 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,068
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-July-26, 05:49

gabika73, on Jul 26 2004, 11:11 AM, said:

Declarer took a line based upon a surfacial (is that a word?) analysis of the auction.

Yes, surfacial means surface-related, but then in the litteral sense.
You probably mean "superficial" (based on the way something's looking at the surface, also in the symbolic sense).
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
0

#19 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Joined: 2003-December-17
  • Location:Ohio
  • Interests:Sailing, cooking, bonsaitrees.

Posted 2004-July-26, 11:26

As I have said many many many times before, some people just don't belong as directors. If this happens to be a one time mistake o well.
But I have feeling that, even with common reasoning, a regular level player ( director) should figure out that it was perfectly legal, and even alerted.
This is also a case where opps called director because they played so bad they wanted something back.
If up to me I would warn the ones that called director not to that too often.

Mike :D
“If there is dissatisfaction with the status quo, good. If there is ferment,
so much the better. If there is restlessness, I am pleased. Then let there
be ideas, and hard thought, and hard work.”
0

#20 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,760
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2004-July-26, 15:45

Trpltrbl, on Jul 27 2004, 05:26 AM, said:

This is also a case where opps called director because they played so bad they wanted something back.
If up to me I would warn the ones that called director not to that too often.

I agree that they are the ones who are out of line here.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users