[kfay]

I thought this was super obvious but my partner disagreed with me and so did another person, initially.

Scoring: IMP

1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥
3♣-3♠
3NT-4NT
Pass

---

[ArtK78]

I have a lot of sympathy for both players. Both underbid their hands slightly, but I might have duplicated their bids.

South has a full opener with a good 5-5. If partner has a fit, South's hand is huge. But opposite no fit, it is not a great hand. Further, partner went through 4th suit forcing which doesn't promise a heart stop. South was endplayed into bidding 3NT with only Qx of hearts, and he could not have felt too comfortable about that (although it is hard to imagine a non-fitting North hand without a card or two in hearts). South's final pass was conservative, but not outrageous.

North has a super hand, one that looks like 8 or 9 tricks in hand opposite a partner who opened the bidding. But the value of North's cards never improved until the 3NT bid by South. While South has shown a complete misfit for North's hand, he did promise SOMETHING in hearts. Given that South should have 10 cards in the minors, it is hard to imagine South bidding 3NT on this auction without the Q of hearts. So North has 10 tricks in hand, assuming that the spades run. North's final 4NT bid is conservative. Is it too conservative? Hard to say. It is clear that South's hand is shapely.

Could South have --- Qxx KQJxx KQJxx? Sure he could. Should North have constructed an auction geared to finding out if the partnership was off two aces, on the assumption that there would be 12 tricks if they were not off two aces? Perhaps. But, then again, South could easily be off the AK in one of his two suits.

I find it hard to assess any blame on this hand. No single action is a clear error. The hands fit very well, and the declarership is from the right side.

Bottom line is that both players took conservative views of their hands on the auction. I don't think either one is outrageous.

[pooltuna]

kfay, on May 25 2010, 08:59 AM, said:

I thought this was super obvious but my partner disagreed with me and so did another person, initially.

Scoring: IMP

1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥
3♣-3♠
3NT-4NT
Pass

---

WJS has a price and this is part of that price

[Hanoi5]

I blame North. Though I don't see how to force South to answer aces I think 4NT is a quantitative bid, or might be taken that way. So either 6NT right away or ask for KC in clubs.

[655321]

With the agreements I usually have, 4NT is RKCB in spades.

Slam invitational hands can normally do something else, such as 4NT over 3♣.

[rbforster]

pooltuna, on May 25 2010, 10:00 AM, said:

WJS has a price and this is part of that price

Don't SJS's promise a single suited hand? You don't want to bury your 4-4 heart fit here, do you?

I blame North a little with such a good hand, although I think you'd need better agreements than I have to make a slam try in spades over 3N. 3N-4♠ sounds like a signoff, so at least 4N is quantitative. Perhaps 3♣-4♠ would be a slam try in spades?

[kfay]

pooltuna, on May 25 2010, 10:00 AM, said:

kfay, on May 25 2010, 08:59 AM, said:

I thought this was super obvious but my partner disagreed with me and so did another person, initially.

Scoring: IMP

1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥
3♣-3♠
3NT-4NT
Pass

---

WJS has a price and this is part of that price

uhhh... we don't play weak jump shifts

we also don't play strong jump shifts

I was talking to Karlson and he thought that 4♥ by N over 3NT says 'spades!'... any takers?

[rogerclee]

kfay, on May 25 2010, 08:31 AM, said:

I was talking to Karlson and he thought that 4♥ by N over 3NT says 'spades!'... any takers?

Yes.

[aguahombre]

Hanoi5, on May 25 2010, 09:18 AM, said:

ask for KC in clubs.

That. can convert later.

[bluecalm]

The way I usually play it's S fault.
He could be a lot lighter for his 1♦ opener with 5-5 shape. N took this into account by only inviting slam (4NT is invite for me). Imo S has significant extras and should bid on. I think it's mainly matter of style and it's very difficult to assign the blame without knowing anything about given partnership.
I also think it's way more difficult in "standard" when it's not clear at all if S has extras (cause he couldn't jump to 3♣ with 15pc).

I also think 4NT wasn't the best choice. N wants to play in ♠ not in NT. He should have bid 4♥ in my opinion which is cuebid and slam try in ♠ (with majors 5-5 he would bid 3♥ instead of 2♥ round earlier).

[Mbodell]

ArtK78, on May 25 2010, 06:54 AM, said:

While South has shown a complete misfit for North's hand, he did promise SOMETHING in hearts. Given that South should have 10 cards in the minors, it is hard to imagine South bidding 3NT on this auction without the Q of hearts. So North has 10 tricks in hand, assuming that the spades run.

South doesn't need to have the Q of hearts. He didn't bid nt over 4sf and he could well be treating something like Txxx or T9x as a half stop expecting partner to have something in hearts for the auction as well. He's endplayed. Also, depending on your opening style, he may have only 9 cards in the minors. Consider a hand like:

x T9x AQJx KQJxx

Lots of people would bid 1♦...2♣...3♣...3nt with that.

And still 6nt has play, so maybe 4nt is still too low road, but I don't think it is even 75+% that opener has both the heart Q and 10+ minor cards.

[MFA]

pooltuna, on May 25 2010, 05:00 PM, said:

kfay, on May 25 2010, 08:59 AM, said:

I thought this was super obvious but my partner disagreed with me and so did another person, initially.

Scoring: IMP

1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥
3♣-3♠
3NT-4NT
Pass

---

WJS has a price and this is part of that price

WJS might actually help here, since with wjs one should play 1♦-1♠-2♣-3♠ as gameforcing with spades. A subsequent 4NT would then be RKC for spades.

[junyi_zhu]

kfay, on May 25 2010, 01:59 PM, said:

I thought this was super obvious but my partner disagreed with me and so did another person, initially.

Scoring: IMP

1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥
3♣-3♠
3NT-4NT
Pass

---

A typical problem of 4th suit gameforcing. After 2H and 3S, north barely shows a gf hand with 6 spades. No trump has been set up, no extra value has been shown. north is basically bidding in the darkness.

If the bidding can go like 1D 1S 2C 3S(set up S as trumps, gf), south can then make a few cuebids and evaluate his HQ better, the life would be much easier.

[mike777]

kfay, on May 25 2010, 08:59 AM, said:

I thought this was super obvious but my partner disagreed with me and so did another person, initially.

Scoring: IMP

1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥
3♣-3♠
3NT-4NT
Pass

---

60% north

north has 4 loser hand with a misfit

north could have less for 4nt...


40% south.


south has a 5 loser hand with a misfit.


south could have far less for 3nt.....

[1eyedjack]

The misfit has been exposed by the time North bids 4NT, so South should no longer devalue his hand for that factor.

[jukmoi]

To me the North sequence is the only way to set ♠ as trumps with forcing tempo. So 4NT is RKC for ♠ and the blame goes 100 % to South.

[Jlall]

Didn't read any answers but 4H over 3N to set spades.

[Fluffy]

4♥ instead of 4NT he's got 10 sure tricks and it will be hardly an unplayable slam in spades.


If south opens 5-5 minors with 10 counts often north has some redemption and south should evaluate his hand better.