[MFA]

3♦. I don't have a problem with that. Opposite a weak NT type, 3NT is often a good shot. For instance.

shyams, on May 16 2010, 11:33 AM, said:

I was East. This is one of those deals where my thought process was surprisingly well organized (even if misguided) at the table. I still remember most of the things that I considered in the 7-8 seconds after the 2♥ bid was put on the table.

1. I thought the vulnerability was vital on this board. If they were non-vul, I had a very easy 3♦. I realise that many top posters said it is obvious to bid with the East hand; but one of the reasons I considered pass is because I was OK playing 2♥x
2. I thought if partner has 0-1 ♥ card (and 4-card ♠) he will reopen with a dbl. My plan was to bid 4♦ (invites game?) or pass for penalty if this happens
3. I thought partner has a decent chance he will double if he had 4-2-3-4 with xx in ♥.
4. I also thought partner will surely bid with 5-4 or 6-4 in the black suits and a minimum
5. I honestly never considered what happens if partner held a 3-card ♥ suit.

I agree that passing was probably wrong. This time it worked well as most people who bid 3NT went down (although partner was in top form and would've made it).

A few comments:

Ad 2.
Passing partner's reopening double would be much too speculative. We are only at the 2-level and have no safety at all playing for penalty here. We don't control the trumps and we don't know if partner really controls clubs.
Partner could have AQJx, -, QJxx, Axxxx. Unlucky, sure, but we might very well be conceding a doubled partscore with a cold grand slam our way.

4♦ feels like an underbid and bypasses 3NT. That's part of the problem with passing, as rogerclee says.

Ad 3.
Generally, partner should pass with a weak NT. With a good hand, perfect shape 4-2-3-4 and everything working, he might double, just as you say. But that leaves him passing a lot of ugly hands with ♥Hx or three cards ♥. Just the ones where we often make 3NT.

Ad 4.
"Surely bid" with 5-4/6-4 blacks is an overbid. He knows that with spades we would have had a convenient negative double available.

[whereagles]

jdonn, on May 16 2010, 06:27 AM, said:

If you bid 3♦ you certainly might get too high. But, you just can't pass, you can't! How will you ever show your hand when partner does anything but pass it out? And even if he does you might well have made 3NT. I mean, passing is just bad! Why try to be a genius just bid your hand.

Of course you can pass. Partner is very likely to be short in hearts, so odds are pretty good he'll reopen this. If it goes, say,

1♣ 2♥ pass pass
dbl pass

you can now use the Robson/Segal 17 year-old gadget, lebensohl 2NT (they call it lebensohl, yes), to show a "good" bid. In this particular case this mean you bid a straight 3♦ to show a decent hand within the pass. You'd show a lousier hand by bidding 2NT and pulling 3♣ to 3♦.

One final note: to show your hand is a good principle, but good bidding is more than that. In this situation, you have to make a decision: whether to just bid your hand or to be cautious due to looming misfit. Whatever you decide is, in my opinion, fine. I just don't think bidding 3♦ is the only sensible action.

[gwnn]

so what do you do Nuno if it goes

1♣-2♥-p-3♥
p-p-?

[pooltuna]

shyams, on May 15 2010, 09:48 AM, said:

Scoring: XIMP

---

At our table, the auction was brief: West (dealer) opened 1♣, North overcalled 2♥ which was passed out

How would you have bid the E/W hands? Please comment on our auction...

Well everyone always talks about it but never seems to consider it a real auction how about upgrading the West hand and opening 1NT

[jdonn]

What is with passing then bidding 3♦ or 4♦? Even if playing 2NT as lebensohl, the first one shows both kings less than this, the second one shows an ace less than this. You can't cater your system to passing game forcing hands over the overcall!

[nige1]

Winstonm, on May 15 2010, 09:51 AM, said:

Everything looks reasonable to me.

Agree with WinstonM. Some players used to say "Content"instead of "Pass" or "Nobid"

[whereagles]

jdonn, on May 16 2010, 01:12 PM, said:

What is with passing then bidding 3♦ or 4♦? Even if playing 2NT as lebensohl, the first one shows both kings less than this, the second one shows an ace less than this. You can't cater your system to passing game forcing hands over the overcall!

Ask Robson. That's where I got the idea They have an example hand of pass + good 3x with 11 hcp. I can give you the reference later, if you want.

[whereagles]

gwnn, on May 16 2010, 12:06 PM, said:

so what do you do Nuno if it goes

1♣-2♥-p-3♥
p-p-?

Now 4♦. Unless opps are bluffing, pard will have a min 4134 or 3136 and 4♦ is safe. Actually, I should probably bid 5 of those

[ggwhiz]

Quote

What is with passing then bidding 3♦ or 4♦? Even if playing 2NT as lebensohl, the first one shows both kings less than this

I disagree. 3♦ does show this but I don't play lebensohl here. Since you are max. how about a 3♥ cue after pard re-opens with a double?

That gets you to 3nt if it's right or a 4♦ bid to follow should be reasonably safe and won't hang pard if they re-opened with a stiff ♥ and a piece of cheese, or in my case, G's.

The above is after 2♥ - pass - pass - dbl but if it does go 3♥ back to me, I'll hit it and let pard decide.

[Winstonm]

gwnn, on May 15 2010, 07:46 PM, said:

I would open 1C with winstonm hand and force to game with this and God only knows where we would stop. I hope they don't double us. Anyway that is that hand, at least this hand I got a game swing against winstonm. When opps don't pass all the time my bidding is worse, obviously.

I agree with you 100%. We pick our poison and live with the results. Good stuff.

Edit: Also note I did not consider negative double - I only wondered if those who open lightish carry through and take the more aggressive stance by bidding 3D.

[aguahombre]

someone else, on another thread, said that passing a mere 1S overcall had a range of zero to 11; and he was not including the trap pass hands.

That person, to be consistent, would pass on this auction, and his alleged Leben would include this higher count. But, more mainstream would be to distinguish ranges 0-5 from 6-9, or thereabouts.

I am convinced by some good posts that pass is probably not a good idea, though it might work --and did ok in this case. The negative double, followed by 3D, at least would not overstate the values. The problem with doing that is obvious --the auction might turn ugly. CHO might not make a call beneath 3D. But, I can't bring myself to agree with 3D.

So, it is still contentment with what occurred or Neg double and hope it works out. If I choose to pass, I think I might as well pass again if pard reopens with a double, since he will never believe my HCP's, anyway.

[Winstonm]

jdonn, on May 16 2010, 01:27 AM, said:

If you bid 3♦ you certainly might get too high. But, you just can't pass, you can't! How will you ever show your hand when partner does anything but pass it out? And even if he does you might well have made 3NT. I mean, passing is just bad! Why try to be a genius just bid your hand.

This is a good point. It shows that in reality this is not a bidding problem but a problem of evaluation - what is the East hand worth?

Edit: I am excluding the negative double but perhaps I should not.