[shevek]

What is this:

1♥  (no)  2NT*  (3♠)
X ?

Shortage or penalty or? Is this written somewhere?

[rogerclee]

I play it's shortness, since it's very common for you to have spade shortness on this auction, and if you don't have shortness it's also very useful to show it by not doubling.

Whether you have spade shortness is the most important piece of information you can give to your partner if LHO is about to raise to 4S. Also for slam purposes, whether you have spade shortness is really important from partner's perspective, so it makes sense to share this information immediately while the level is low.

I'm not sure how standard the agreement is, but I know a lot of people who play it. Even if you don't want to play double is shortness, it is obvious to me at least that you need some way to show spade shortness, whether that is double, pass, or 3N.

[JanM]

shevek, on May 10 2010, 09:23 PM, said:

What is this:

1♥  (no)  2NT*  (3♠)
X ?

Shortage or penalty or? Is this written somewhere?

Hopefully it's written in your bidding notes. Mine say "After an overcall, DBL always penalty" because we found that when we didn't have a way to penalty double people who interfered in our Major suit raise auctions, the opponents were able to take away our bidding room with very little risk.

[awm]

I rather like:

double = penalty
bid = cuebid with spade shortness (3NT can be used as nonserious)
pass = not spade shortness, not good enough spades to double

[pooltuna]

shevek, on May 10 2010, 11:23 PM, said:

What is this:

1♥  (no)  2NT*  (3♠)
X ?

Shortage or penalty or? Is this written somewhere?

Shortage? Has someone stolen from you? Well you don't give scoring or vulnerability but in any event I think it to be willingness to defend which means an appropriate hand for the scoring/colors.

[whereagles]

how about "natural"?

dbl = pen
pass = nothing to say, probably a min
bid = cue, extras (in form of shape or distribution)
cue = v.good extras & shortness
4♥ = not interested in slam, defensive hand

[kfay]

On numerous occasions I've had good players say to me 'I always bid over these auctions because people don't generally know what they're doing' (not applicable at higher levels, obv) 'and it's basically a free bid since they won't penalize me.'

That's why I like to play penalty doubles :-)

Kinda like the implications of AWM's setup though. I've always had to just 1-level raise to show shortness, which obv wastes a ton of space. Maybe 3NT would be a good bid to show shortness, then other bids cues no shortness.

[jdonn]

I have never seen the overcall punished whether playing penalty doubles or not on this auction. I think they are pretty useless unless people are going to start overcalling on KQx or something.

[jdeegan]

It is not written. All continuations over the J2NT are up to the individual partnerships, although in the US the simple continuations thru 4♥ have become fairly standard. With interference I would suggest that in the absence of prior discussion it should be for penalties and show a ♠ stop. You might want to limp into 3NT occasionally, and there is no better way since double gives you a two way shot and leaves the decision to the hand best equipped to make the right choice.

[shevek]

shevek, on May 10 2010, 11:23 PM, said:

What is this:

1♥  (no)  2NT*  (3♠)
X ?

Shortage or penalty or? Is this written somewhere?

Scoring: MP

---

West passed, hoping to suggest a non-minimum, then passed again when East felt he could do no more than 4♥.

There is a case for pass = stiff spade.

[P_Marlowe]

Penalty.

Pass would be forcing, hence X is penalty, live is easy.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

shevek, on May 12 2010, 03:12 AM, said:

shevek, on May 10 2010, 11:23 PM, said:

What is this:

1♥  (no)  2NT*  (3♠)
X ?

Shortage or penalty or? Is this written somewhere?

Scoring: MP

---

West passed, hoping to suggest a non-minimum, then passed again when East felt he could do no more than 4♥.

There is a case for pass = stiff spade.

Hi,

I think 4D is a lot better.

4D tells p, that you are missing a club control, but you have some
slam interest, in case 3NT is still serious, it tells p, that you dont have
a huge slam interest.
P has a club control, and if you play, that the first cue showes a top
honor, p will also see, that the hands mesh very well.
P can ask for the space control with 5H.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[nige1]

Sorry duplicate post

[nige1]

shevek, on May 12 2010, 03:12 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

What is this:
1♥  (no)  2NT*  (3♠)
X ?
Shortage or penalty or? Is this written somewhere?West passed, hoping to suggest a non-minimum, then passed again when East felt he could do no more than 4♥.
There is a case for pass = stiff spade.

---

IMO X = Penalty, P = Denies ♠ shortage, Bid = Promises ♠ control. So, here. West would bid 4♦.
He would bid 4♥ with, say ♠ - ♥ AKxxxxx ♦ QJxx ♣ Qxx
In their Partnership Bidding, Robson and Segal suggest a simple rule: when you have a known fit, doubles are penalty.

[MFA]

jdonn, on May 11 2010, 07:03 PM, said:

I have never seen the overcall punished whether playing penalty doubles or not on this auction. I think they are pretty useless unless people are going to start overcalling on KQx or something.

Some players here are pretty 'crazy' in getting lead directors in. I strongly prefer to have a penalty double available. But since I don't play jacoby 2NT regularly, I don't have a complete set of good agreements here.

[H_KARLUK]

shevek, on May 12 2010, 04:12 AM, said:

shevek, on May 10 2010, 11:23 PM, said:

What is this:

1♥  (no)  2NT*  (3♠)
X ?

Shortage or penalty or? Is this written somewhere?

Scoring: MP

---

West passed, hoping to suggest a non-minimum, then passed again when East felt he could do no more than 4♥.

There is a case for pass = stiff spade.

I think that was a pretty interesting pass by West who obviously followed rule of 20. Maybe 4D natural would be much helpful. Otoh, the high cards he doesn't see are HQJ and D KQJ, C AKQJ bcoz 9 out of 10 SP values with th bogey. To me a little visualization would be nice as impossible to bid J2N just only with HQj, so something pretty much useful there in a strict HCP range, then let's find it via either tell our control or ask keycards.

If the matter is to establish a partnership agreement about to determine how to show :

balanced/unbalanced/highly unbalanced opening hands with their minimum/moderate/maximum potential then the message meanings could be shown either in a natural or in an artificial way depending negative X level on your CC and cue style.

It coud be easy to load many special meanings how to handle after a minor suit intervene at both opposition seats. ie good/bad raises.

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on May 11 2010, 12:03 PM, said:

I have never seen the overcall punished whether playing penalty doubles or not on this auction. I think they are pretty useless unless people are going to start overcalling on KQx or something.

You haven't seen my or my partner's lead-directors, apparently. The less often people double, the more often KQx is in fact safe.

I like:

3NT = void in their suit
New = cue with 1st or 2nd-round control
X = penalty
Pass = no control
4M = ugly hand

[Cascade]

Bidding the same way with KQx and KQxxxxx has an obvious disadvantage to one's own partnership.

Penalty doubles would seem to be a low frequency use for an economical bid. I prefer to use the call for something descriptive and more frequent like a stiff spade.

In other cue-bid situations we use

Dbl = high-card cue - ace or king

PASS = no high-card cue and no shortage

Cue = spade shortage and cue in the suit bid

[ONEferBRID]

KenRexfords's partner aside, it has been suggested to give up the penalty DBL.

I've been told by an expert that it is very important to show shortness in the face of competition.

That way:
DBL = stolen bid ( shortness in overcalled suit )
pass = shortness in lower suit ( DBL, then asks where )

Other bids remain the same as w/o competition : 3M ( when available ) 3NT, 4M, 4C, 4D ( eg. 4C = 2nd 5 card suit, ergo shortness somewhere ) .

[kenrexford]

I withdraw my suggestion. Please disregard my suggestion that a double be penalty. Make a double show shortness, or even better, make it 100% forcing on Responder.