[kenberg]

When the auction begins 1S-X-XX we can assume that unless someone is screwing around, fourth hand will have very scanty values. Moreover, second hand's values are at least partly distributional. What should a bid of 1NT mean?

I did not play that hand, but I heard about it. At the table fourth hand held something like QJxxx/xxx/x/xxxx. I guess if you are ever going to bid 1NT to play, hoping for the best, that's the hand to do it with. Second hand took it to be more along the lines of "I don't know what the opponents are doing, but I have a balanced hand with some values". Diamonds did not play well!

When the double could be the start of equal level conversion, I suppose that a case could be made for fourth hand showing clubs in two different ways: Bid 2C, bid 1NT. One of these (presumably 1NT,) would show a club fit assuming second hand has clubs, the other, 2C, would announce long clubs so that even if second hand has the elc hand he should consider playing in clubs. Playing this way the 1NT, besides showing modest club length, would also include the ability to play in 1NT as a last resort. So something like the hand mentioned above.

I cannot recall ever actually bidding 1NT as fourth hand after 1S-X-XX so maybe this is not a priority item but I realized that I don't have a very clear idea of what I should expect if it arises.

You, as second hand, would expect what from your partner's 1NT? And with 1-4-5-3, or something similar, you would do what?

I don't know the hands in enough detail to say where their best spot actually was so consider it a general question.

[helene_t]

Bergen plays this as showing minors. This is in the context of otherwise standard methods, i.e. pass would be forcing and dbl is not ELC. If you pass, doubler may bid 2♥ with 2533 or 15(43) hands with a heart suit too bad to overcall 2♥, or with 3433.

I don't think it is a huge loss to have to pass with those hands, most of the times doubler will bid a minor.

I suppose if playing ELC you would like to be able to show a hand with strong preference for clubs as well as a hand with weak preference for clubs. Then with no preference you could pass, hoping doubler won't bid 2♥.

When nonvulnerable you could put several hand types into 1NT since opps will have to double it after which you have rdbl and a forcing pass to show different things.

But AWM has told us that pass should be to play so you have to play 1NT as scrambling. This is awkward to combine with ELC if you don't want to play a silly undoubled 1NT.

[awm]

I'd play 1NT as scramble here. This normally shows a hand with equal length in two or more suits, usually fairly balanced. Typical shapes are like 3(244), 4333, 5(332) with bad spades.

Doubler can feel free to bid a five-card suit (if any, even if hearts) or if holding no five card suit would normally bid the cheapest four-card suit. Passing is also possible (hoping to scramble some tricks in 1NT, or let advancer decide what to do if 1NT is doubled). One could probably have more detailed agreements since 1NT undoubled is often an okay spot, and if 1NT is doubled it creates a lot more options (pass it back to partner, redouble, etc).

I don't see such a big problem here that we need two scrambling bids to distinguish different hand types (i.e. pass and 1NT).

[Phil]

awm, on May 8 2010, 12:12 PM, said:

I'd play 1NT as scramble here. This normally shows a hand with equal length in two or more suits, usually fairly balanced. Typical shapes are like 3(244), 4333, 5(332) with bad spades.

Doubler can feel free to bid a five-card suit (if any, even if hearts) or if holding no five card suit would normally bid the cheapest four-card suit. Passing is also possible (hoping to scramble some tricks in 1NT, or let advancer decide what to do if 1NT is doubled). One could probably have more detailed agreements since 1NT undoubled is often an okay spot, and if 1NT is doubled it creates a lot more options (pass it back to partner, redouble, etc).

I don't see such a big problem here that we need two scrambling bids to distinguish different hand types (i.e. pass and 1NT).

But you also play pass as penalty, do you not?

[awm]

Phil, on May 8 2010, 12:42 PM, said:

But you also play pass as penalty, do you not?

I play pass as penalty after 1♠-X-XX.

What I was referring to, is the auction 1♠-X-XX-1NT; (Pass or X)-???

Doubler can sometimes pass 1NT here, because 1NT undoubled will fairly frequently be a decent result. Of course, 1NT will often be doubled, either by opener or by responder. But that double creates a lot more options (i.e. advancer gets another call, redouble is available, etc).

[kenberg]

Phil,

Whatever the merits of playing pass=penalty, and I agree that there are some, I don't play that way with any of my partners. I gather from your Q that you don't either. How then would you play 1NT?

Take-out for the minors occurred to me, but of course a pass (assuming it is not for penalties) will usually bring a minor suit bid from partner (presumably he will try for a fit somewhere, trusting that his partner will get them back to hearts if the minor he bids is not the right one). But not always. So maybe minor suit take-out is the way to go?

K

[aguahombre]

awm, on May 8 2010, 11:55 AM, said:

Phil, on May 8 2010, 12:42 PM, said:

But you also play pass as penalty, do you not?

I play pass as penalty after 1♠-X-XX.

If you have ever played 1CXX for minus 430 same as 3Nt making 4, you will understand that minus 800 scrambling would have been worse. Takeout doubles, if not taken out, are to play. Soloway did not understand that on the OP auction, and several years ago we chalked up 1SXX making 4 in a swiss.

[mich-b]

We play 1NT here as suggestion to play this contract , as a least of evils.
I remember once bidding it with QJTxx Qx xxx xxx , and winning 7 IMPs when I was doubled and down 1 , and other table was doubled and down 2 in 2♣.

You don't hold this kind of hand often , but sometimes anything else is worse than 1NTX.

I dont think you need to agree that 1NT shows minors. With minors you can bid 1NT natural , and then XX when you get doubled.

[FrancesHinden]

I don't play pass of 1S x xx as to play
I still play 1NT here as showing a normal 1NT bid i.e. real values. It has come up a few times; usually one of the opponents is indeed screwing around.

[aguahombre]

FrancesHinden, on May 9 2010, 03:06 AM, said:

I don't play pass of 1S x xx as to play
I still play 1NT here as showing a normal 1NT bid i.e. real values.  It has come up a few times; usually one of the opponents is indeed screwing around.

Interesting. Usually one of them is indeed screwing around when you have a real NT response, but not when you have a penalty pass.

The only "obvious" answer is that the partnership had better discuss, in advance, what calls mean by advancer after a redouble. It could be very expensive to assume one style or the other. We have been on both sides of this problem, many times. Our agreement that takeout doubles are taken out (pass means we don't want to take it out) --and that 1NT is still the same strength ---has put us on firm footing. We have not been the side who had the accident.

If we were random take-out doublers, as many are these days, then we would need the pass to allow partner to scramble --and the NT bid to show a bad two-suiter.

[Jlall]

1N is either natural or minors (if natural it doesn't necessarily show very much). If they X then you XX with minors and equal or longer diamonds, and bid 2C with minors and longer clubs.

Yes it's possible for this to work out badly if someone has psyched, or if they let you play 1N undoubled when you have the minors and that works out for them, but both are unlikely scenarios.

On the other hand you need a way to scramble into the right minor when you have the minors, and you also need a way to play 1N or 1NX when thats your best spot (as it easily could be on a misfit deal when it's 1 level lower). Passing with the minors will not work because partner might bid 2H (the primary message of the pass in these auctions is always that you can stand partner bidding the farthest suit).

Also with the modern style of frequently doubling with a doubleton minor, it becomes even more important to be able to show both minors.

Did I mention 1S X XX p p 1N is also 2 way?

[CSGibson]

Jlall, on May 9 2010, 10:44 PM, said:

1N is either natural or minors (if natural it doesn't necessarily show very much). If they X then you XX with minors and equal or longer diamonds, and bid 2C with minors and longer clubs.

Yes it's possible for this to work out badly if someone has psyched, or if they let you play 1N undoubled when you have the minors and that works out for them, but both are unlikely scenarios.

On the other hand you need a way to scramble into the right minor when you have the minors, and you also need a way to play 1N or 1NX when thats your best spot (as it easily could be on a misfit deal when it's 1 level lower). Passing with the minors will not work because partner might bid 2H (the primary message of the pass in these auctions is always that you can stand partner bidding the farthest suit).

Also with the modern style of frequently doubling with a doubleton minor, it becomes even more important to be able to show both minors.

Did I mention 1S X XX p p 1N is also 2 way?

That's a cool treatment. Thanks.

[kenberg]

Interesting and varied responses. Thanks.

[peachy]

1S-X-XX-Pass shows a hand that does not care which suit partner picks as trump. Logically it is not a penalty Pass and covers a very tiny territory if it is played as penalty pass [assume that somebody psyched]. Opener 13, partner 13, responder 10.

1S-X-XX-1NT therefore cannot be 9-11 or so. Logically, it should show minors or two places to play, and 2C and 2D and 2H would show that suit. Dunno, I'm getting old...?