[pooltuna]

gwnn, on May 3 2010, 09:48 AM, said:

pooltuna, on May 2 2010, 03:09 PM, said:

gwnn, on May 2 2010, 07:30 AM, said:

Whatever jlall, mike777 would have known what to bid even without the hand, as he says always double or cuebid and now there was no legal way to double so...

Anyway with 6♣ and 4♥ it is best to start with 3♣ if you have game forcing values. If you double then you will lose a lot of good games and slams when opponents refuse to shut up as they should

Sorry but IMO this is BS. If you have GF values with ♣s & 4♥ even if the opps interfere you will be getting to your games if they are still in reach as any action you take will show your values.

Sorry Tuna but your post is complete nonsense.

snip

I hope you agree that you should not start with a double over 1♦-(1♠) and I assume you would also double over 3♠ as would I. The question is then just about 2♠.

The obvious upside of double is that partner can pass it. The obvious upside of 3♣ is that we don't lose a double game swing on a pedestrian hand like

x and x gives you -590,

3♣ and x gives you +600

---

Now it could be sometimes that we miss hearts after 3♣, particularly after a start like

1♦-2♠-3♣-3♠
p-p-x

where opener should first look at his ♠ holding and then his ♥ holding. Couple of things about that:

-sometimes we can just bid 4♥ over 3♠ suggesting a good 64 hand
-when partner has less than 4 hearts we're again much better off than
1♦-2♠-x-3♠
p-p-x

where we just said "ummmm i have 4 hearts partner and i have no idea what we should do"

So overall I'd think 3♣ will find more games. The problem is not that we forgot that we have game on, the problem is that we just have to keep doubling when opps keep bidding and it's better to show our 6 card suit than suggest our 4 card suit.

sorry but your example hand carries no weight as partner cannot pass 2♠X (assuming sanity}. You seem to want him to look into your hand and see that you have 13 HCP but not at the same time to see your distribution. What happens if you have a weaker -X consequently he has to call 3♣ [oh what a shame for our actual hand )

[gwnn]

Sorry I was talking about 4♠ by South.

590 ----> 4♠x= instead of inserting cute little smiley faces you could instead read my post. 590 is not 2♠x+2 it's 4♠. you could look at North's hand and realize that North would not pass our double.

1♦-2♠-3♣-4♠
5♣

as opposed to

1♦-2♠-x-4♠
p-p-x-p
p-p

What are you talking about pooltuna?

I bid 3♣ when I have GF values and 6-4. 3♣ is already game forcing, he doesn't need to look at my hand. He can look at my 3♣ call instead!

That was my point the whole time, when the auction gets competitive we will lose clubs. If you just blindly double to show your hearts but don't show clubs you will often lose clubs.

What is it that you don't understand?

[bid_em_up]

And all this time, i thought that a negative double followed by a bid only showed invitational values (not GF). Because if I had a GF call with a qualifying suit, I would have bid it directly, instead of screwing around making a negative double.

Or in other words,

agree with gwnn.

[aguahombre]

bid_em_up, on May 3 2010, 11:59 AM, said:

And all this time, i thought that a negative double followed by a bid only showed invitational values (not GF).   Because if I had a GF call with a qualifying suit, I would have bid it directly, instead of screwing around making a negative double.

Or in other words,

agree with gwnn.

Agree pretty much with this, as it applies to the given 4-6 hand. The generalization about a negative double, followed by a new suit bid might not be completely accurate. It could have less than invitational values in certain auctions --not this auction, of course.

To be more clear: a neg double with X KJXX QX AKXXXX is unprepared. a 3C bid, followed by a double later on the given auction is more prepared.