[jdonn]

---

1♥ 3♠
3NT 4♦ (DBL)
RBL 4♠
5♣ 5♥
6♣ 6♥

3♠ = light splinter bid in any suit (this playing strength would be about typical, if north had 4 hearts only then he might have about another queen)
3NT = asking
4♦ = short diamonds
RBL = first round control
4♠ = keycard
5♣ = 1 or 4
5♥ = to play opposite 1
6♣ = 4 and the king of clubs

ATB? How does north find out south doesn't have xx AKxxx Axx AKx? How does south find out north doesn't have Axx QJ9xx x xxxx? I was south but am open to criticism as long as it doesn't involve better agreements, we don't have any! Like maybe south should bid keycard over the double, or maybe north should bid 4NT (spade cuebid) instead of keycard.

(PS - All's well that ends well, the other table stopped in game)

[Fluffy]

can't say anything new to you, IMO kecard is wrong with a weak hand this is the biggest mistake, if you do splinter, you are the guy who describes, not the guy in control, specially missing ♣AK.

But south could had started with keycard and just assumed ♣Q would be there or magically bannish somehow (diamond finese, spade king or whatever).

I also think you are overstatimating this grand, it is a grand on a finese and a drop, and the finese is not 100% likelly to succeed at all. The fact that the other table missed slam makes it even more ovbious that the grand is not that good.

[wank]

if south bids keycard are you playing a method whereby you can learn north has no kings and the trump queen (well 5 of them) at the 5 level? if so you could follow it up with 6C if that's asking for 3rd round control.

i would think with so many controls and a lovely number of diamonds, south should stop tarting about and just start asking pertinent questions.

something like 4D - 4NT (4S would be keycard instead?)
5C - 5D
5S or 5NT (Q, no kings) - 6C
6H

[jdonn]

Fluffy, on Apr 24 2010, 06:34 PM, said:

I also think you are overstatimating this grand, it is a grand on a finese and a drop, and the finese is not 100% likelly to succeed at all.

East doubled an artificial 4♦ bid...

[straube]

Agree that the DK looks well-placed (though I have been burned).

I looked into Kantar's RKC book for this hand and I don't think there's any way to get there.

I think the strong hand should take control and RKC but it still won't get you to 7.

4S (RKC)-5C (one or four)
5D-Q ask-5N or 6S

Both 5N and 6S show the Q or extra length but deny side kings. 5N shows extra length (again) or a useful side queen.

If responder bids 6S (judging he has bid enough or judging that the SQ may not be useful), that ends the auction. If responder bids 5N, this allows opener to bid 6C as a club ask.

The responses are...

6N with Qx(x)
7C with QJx(x)
7S with xx

So no way to find fourth round control of clubs.

[Phil]

I think this is exactly the kind of layout where you don't want to bid the grand even though its great (but not cold). Your methods caught an ideal hand and its not at all obvious that the other table can bid the small slam.

Doubles of splinters are LOL unless they actually mean something like sac or lead a specific suit.

[jdonn]

Some facts FWIW

I was south.
By all means criticize my choices that's why I posted, but I didn't bid keycard because I thought if partner had the queen of clubs or a doubleton he could count the tricks easily, whereas I wasn't confident using an undiscussed club asking bid after I bid keycard. Also if I ultimately used a 5♦ queen ask I wasn't sure which of 5♠ or 5NT which would deny the spade king and which would show it.
The auction by which the opponents missed slam was stupid (2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 3♥ 4♥). Of course these things certainly do happen.

[straube]

jdonn, on Apr 24 2010, 11:47 PM, said:

Some facts FWIW

I was south.
By all means criticize my choices that's why I posted, but I didn't bid keycard because I thought if partner had the queen of clubs or a doubleton he could count the tricks easily, whereas I wasn't confident using an undiscussed club asking bid after I bid keycard. Also if I ultimately used a 5♦ queen ask I wasn't sure which of 5♠ or 5NT which would deny the spade king and which would show it.
The auction by which the opponents missed slam was stupid (2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 3♥ 4♥). Of course these things certainly do happen.

Yeah. My partner and I don't have our RKC agreements hammered out either. I was just suggesting that even Kantar's methods for RKC wouldn't have helped.

Seems like your spade shortness is a key to the hand. If partner can't picture that, he'll not be able to bid 7 because he has nothing on which to park your losing spades.

[CSGibson]

I think the only way you could have been sure would be to play fit jumps w/9 cards in the suits, or to do some sort of pattern-showing relay system. With your methods, I don't think you can possibly diagnose this situation, IMO, to get to a good 7.

[jjbrr]

while i think i'd prefer South RKCing, I doubt I'd get to grand on this hand. I expect small slam to be the normal result, and it's not really that close, when north shows no kings with the trump Q.

[Fluffy]

jdonn, on Apr 24 2010, 11:56 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Apr 24 2010, 06:34 PM, said:

I also think you are overstatimating this grand, it is a grand on a finese and a drop, and the finese is not 100% likelly to succeed at all.

East doubled an artificial 4♦ bid...

east doubled an splinter bid, I can't understand why would anyone do so with a king.

[mcphee]

I do not believe N should key card. Playing 6 is enough for me unless it was a case of needing big imps. Why risk the sure thing for a maybe?

[ONEferBRID]

One observation. South doesn't know of North's extra ♥ length, so the reply to 5♥ when holding 4 keys is as if it were a trump Q-ask. A 6♣ reply = ♥Q and ♣ K, whereas 5NT = ♥Q and no outside K ; and 6♥ = no ♥Q.
[ I think this is part of Kantar ] .
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Meckwell uses 4S! = RKC for Hts and 4NT! = Exclusion ( Sp void ) for Hts.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
I agree with straube and others that it is Opener who should go key card:

1H- 3S! ( splinter somewhere )
3NT(asks) - 4D! ( here ) - [DBL ]
4S! - 5C ( 1 key )
5D! - 5NT* ( ♥Q or extra length and NO outside K's )*
6H
____________________________________________
Edit: * Reply would have been 5S if ♥Q and ♠K

[mikeh]

no blame. Not every good contract is biddable. I like the auction: keycard is a wonderful convention but is used far too often: at what point can S ever know what to do on this hand by keycarding? Why can't N be 3=5=1=4 for example....AQx QJxxx x Jxxx is more than you'd expect and how can keycard help?

And North can't gain useful info (the diamond Queen, as one example) via keycard, not that he ever would or should keycard.

At least, on this auction, had N held the club Queen, he might have bid the grand after 6♣.

[cherdanno]

mikeh, on Apr 25 2010, 09:54 AM, said:

no blame. Not every good contract is biddable. I like the auction: keycard is a wonderful convention but is used far too often: at what point can S ever know what to do on this hand by keycarding? Why can't N be 3=5=1=4 for example....AQx QJxxx x Jxxx is more than you'd expect and how can keycard help?

And North can't gain useful info (the diamond Queen, as one example) via keycard, not that he ever would or should keycard.

At least, on this auction, had N held the club Queen, he might have bid the grand after 6♣.

You didn't read the explanations, 4♠ was kickback.
But I think I like the auction you understood (North making a spade cuebid) better than the one that actually happened (North keycarding).

[aguahombre]

So South takes over after the fortuitous double of the stiff-showing bid, and after stopping laughing. Can't North have four small clubs and only AQX of spades? (A question in the OP with no answer available.)

No blame, IMO, for just relaxing, confident that you are beating this team anyway.

[MFA]

I wouldn't want to be in grand.

Apart from that, north's keycard seems wrong. I'm impressed that he finds his hand good enough, but if it is according to agreements then fine.
But it seems to be a problem that south might have 2 key cards with the Q, getting us to 6♥ off two key cards. And north's hand is not suitable for being in charge towards a grand slam, if south is very strong. So if north feels he is too good for 4♥ then he should probably cuebid the ♠A.

Also it seems to be a good idea to agree how to investigate the ♥Q after such a '5♥-bid-again-with-4-keycards' kind of bid.

[aguahombre]

MFA, on Apr 25 2010, 11:00 AM, said:

But it seems to be a problem that south might have 2 key cards with the Q, getting us to 6♥ off two key cards.

OP says 4S was Kickback. I think 2 with the Q will get them to only 5H. That aside, taking over with XXX in clubs doesn't feel good anyways.

[MFA]

aguahombre, on Apr 25 2010, 07:24 PM, said:

MFA, on Apr 25 2010, 11:00 AM, said:

But it seems to be a problem that south might have 2 key cards with the Q, getting us to 6♥ off two key cards.

OP says 4S was Kickback. I think 2 with the Q will get them to only 5H. That aside, taking over with XXX in clubs doesn't feel good anyways.

You've got a point, lol
I withdraw the part of the criticism that was about getting to 6♥ off 2 keycards.

[aguahombre]

one more thought:

All of South's calls are consistent with his hand. And, by accident, they would all have been the same if North's 4S was a Cue instead of KB. Is it possible that North meant to bid 4N spade cue instead --or had a lapse about KB with the same result?

This is irrelevant and a digression -- but perhaps not stupid, this time.