[jdeegan]

Playing BBO version of SAYC after the auction
1♦-P-2♣-P
???
does a 2♥ or 2♠ rebid show extras? If so how much?

Playing BBO 2/1 w/o interference, the same question.

Playing BBO 2/1 with interference, the same question.

Any comments as to the relative merits of each treatment?

[awm]

In standard (or sayc) bidding, 2M is a reverse. It shows extra values as well as showing 5+♦ and 4M. It is forcing to game (opposite partner's 2/1 bid).

In 2/1 GF there are a variety of styles. I think the popular one is that 2M shows 4M and 3-4♦ (i.e. a balanced hand, or maybe 4441) and hands with five-plus diamonds always bid 2♦.

Competitive auctions should default to the "Standard" approach since almost no one plays 2/1 bids in competition as game forcing.

[Codo]

If you play with a pick up partner: Good luck. I would belive that partner has reverse strength, but some surprised me...

With a regular partner: Discuss this sequence, It is a real nightmare to start a bidding with 1♦ 2 ♣. I play that 2 ♦ shows any hand with 5+ diamonds, 4 ♥ is 4441 and 2 ♠ is a strong club raise- the direct raise is nonforcing.
But this is not BBO Standard.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

basically there are two schools, obe req. add. values, the other does not.
For the majority 2H / 2S show at least a better than min. opening hand,
not necessarily full reverse strength.
Personnally I play it that way as well.

In the end, show add. strength helps in determining the combined strength,
promising no add. strength helps in finding your fit, take your pick.

Also relevant for this discussion is, assume opener bids 2H, is 2S by
resonder nat. or FSF? And what are your answers to the FSF inquiry.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Heidar]

To a 1♦ opening I like to bid 1M (majors over minors even with longer minor) if limited to invitational values. Therefor I bypass Majors for GF hands when I got longer clubs. With that in mind I really hate it when partner bids 2NT and it does not deny a Major... So all 2M bids by opener are only to show shape and finding fit, nothing about min/max.

2♦ rebid by opener does NOT deny a 4card Major, it just shows 5+♦.
2M by opener does deny longer ♦'s though.

Min/max aint of much use to you unless you got established fit. So hold those bids til over 3rd lvl 3NT serious/frivolous ans LTTC for example.

To answer your questions:

Playing BBO 2/1 w/o interference, the same question.
2/1 or SAYC I say 2H does not show extra str, just shape. 3C in sayc is still non-forcing. Although I would not bet on everyone else playing it that way on BBO.

Playing BBO 2/1 with interference, the same question.
I assume your interference means dbl or ♠overcall. Both times the 2♣ bid by responder promises only 8+ and has a tendancy to deny hearts, unless he's planning on a revers himself. 2H by responder shows therefor extra (bidding suit pd is known NOT to have usually means extra )

[jdeegan]

Not much help from the panel on this subject. I learned bidding (to the extent possible) from Kaplan-Sheinwold. They saw no reason to assign the 2 ♥ or 2♠ rebid over a 2♣ response as showing extras. Theory says that unnecessarily using bidding space has to have a good reason.

For example, my grounding in the K-S system made it clear that the Jacoby 3NT as a strong major suit raise (as he presented it to me) was no good, so I suggested the use of 2NT as a strong major suit raise. Jake adopted this, and it is now a convention most people use.

[rogerclee]

jdeegan, on Apr 19 2010, 11:55 PM, said:

For example, my grounding in the K-S system made it clear that the Jacoby 3NT as a strong major suit raise (as he presented it to me) was no good, so I suggested the use of 2NT as a strong major suit raise. Jake adopted this, and it is now a convention most people use.

lol

[pooltuna]

jdeegan, on Apr 18 2010, 08:45 PM, said:

Playing BBO version of SAYC after the auction
1♦-P-2♣-P
???
does a 2♥ or 2♠ rebid show extras?  If so how much?

Playing BBO 2/1 w/o interference, the same question.

Playing BBO 2/1 with interference, the same question.

Any comments as to the relative merits of each treatment?

Well if you are a light opener you need to consider treating bids over 2♣ much the same way as you treat 2♥ in the auction 1♥ 2♦ or treat 2♠ in the auction 1♠ 2♥. Generally with a minimal opener the 2 level suit rebid promises NO extra cards in the suit. I suggest you use that in this auction as well. Consequently a 2♦ rebid promisies NO extra cards and could still only be 3(three) cards.

[jdeegan]

Thanks for the comments. It looks like the modern IMP scored game with very light opening bids is a different world from back in the day. While watching top players in action in major events, I have seen a lot of attempts to steal hands with the light openers and responses. Is this just the passing modern fashion, or the future trend?.

[spotlight7]

Hi:

The trend is very much towards lighter openings and replies.

That being said Roth Stone carved a path thru the American
bridge scene in the 50s using solid 14+ openers.

In todays game, Fantunes with their 14+(and a few shapely 12/13) "unlimited" openings
show that solid values 'in a reasonable framework' can also do very well.

I suspect that people like to bid and 'pass' is not liked all that much.

My system methods have sunk to very low levels since I try to push the limits.
I worked up a Phantom Club variant that 'opens' many 8/9+ hands 'as if
overcalling 1C to my right. My Big club methods have me opening most 10s.

Lighter openings are nothing new. Churchill Natural opened
5431 types with 8+HCP back around the 1940s. Churchill Natural
bidding was regarded as some of the best results of that era.
Their slam bidding was especially good.

Regards,
Robert

[Bbradley62]

jdeegan, on Apr 18 2010, 09:45 PM, said:

:unsure: Playing BBO version of SAYC after the auction
1♦-P-2♣-P
???
does a 2♥ or 2♠ rebid show extras? If so how much?

Playing BBO 2/1 w/o interference, the same question.

Playing BBO 2/1 with interference, the same question.

Any comments as to the relative merits of each treatment?

Since your first question asks specifically about BBO-SAYC, and BBO has published a step-by-step BBO-SAYC convention card, I would consider that to be the definitive answer for your question. The posted card says 2M shows: Game Force. 4-card major, 14+. (2♣ was defined as Forcing, 5+♣, 11+.)

The posted 2/1 card does not address the 2M bid. However, that card explains 2♣ as: "Forcing. 5+C. invitational or better". Since the 1♦/2♣ sequence means the same thing under the two systems, I would expect the 2M rebid to also mean the same thing under the two systems.

[gwnn]

on BBO trust no one. you are alone, there are no promises unbroken and nothing sacred except the power of question marks.

[Bbradley62]

gwnn, on Apr 22 2010, 10:23 AM, said:

on BBO trust no one. you are alone, there are no promises unbroken and nothing sacred except the power of question marks.

Agreed. Knowing what is right and having a partner who also knows are two different things.

[Bbradley62]

Bbradley62, on Apr 22 2010, 10:00 AM, said:

The posted 2/1 card does not address the 2M bid. However, that card explains 2♣ as: "Forcing. 5+C. invitational or better". Since the 1♦/2♣ sequence means the same thing under the two systems, I would expect the 2M rebid to also mean the same thing under the two systems.

Playing in a GIB tournament... I opened 1♦ and partner bid 2♣. The explanation of my 2♥ bid was Game Force, 5♦, 4♥, 15-22 total points.

[mike777]

Bbradley62, on Apr 22 2010, 07:32 PM, said:

Bbradley62, on Apr 22 2010, 10:00 AM, said:

The posted 2/1 card does not address the 2M bid. However, that card explains 2♣ as: "Forcing. 5+C. invitational or better".  Since the 1♦/2♣ sequence means the same thing under the two systems, I would expect the 2M rebid to also mean the same thing under the two systems.

Playing in a GIB tournament... I opened 1♦ and partner bid 2♣. The explanation of my 2♥ bid was Game Force, 5♦, 4♥, 15-22 total points.

Ya you got to pick a style where if you are going to be opening 10-14 hands what are you going to rebid with this hand type.


I prefer to just rebid 2h, which yes, becomes a wide range.

In practice 2c(gf) responder will just assume I got 11-13....5d and 4h and such. In fact I rarely have more.