[kenrexford]

Just for context, not that all is relevant, necessarily...

MP game. We are white, they are red.

In first seat, you open 1♦. This is doubled for takeout. I pass. Advancer picks hearts, bidding 1♥.

Now, what would YOU mean, in this sequence, if you bid:

1. 2♣
2. 3♣
3. 2♥
4. X

If these four options are not remotely related in any way, fine. They might be, or they might not be. Don't read anything into the fact that I happened to mention them, as that could taint your view. Just answer the question.

[Fluffy]

2♣ natural, given the vunerability and how sinck I am any 5-4 might qualify.
3♣ natural 5-5, wide ranged
2♥ strong hand with diamonds running probably.
X take out, non minimum and if rectify a suit after it is stronger than for example 3♣.

[jjbrr]

natural

natural, good offense

strong, art, forcing

takeout

[Jlall]

Hi Ken,

1) I am a believer that people bid much too aggressively in this situation. Given partners pass, I think 2C should be a good hand, most often 5-5 but sometimes you have like 1354 18 or something, so I don't think it guarantees 5-5 (without 5-5 I have SIGNIFICANT extras though).

2) This is not forcing, but shows a strong distributional hand. Something like x xx AKQxx AKQxx would be typical. Could obv be less strong in terms of HCP with 6-5.

3) I think this is often based on a diamond one suiter, but not necssarily (could be a super strong minors hand that didn't want to open 2C for tactical reasons). Could this be 3064 or the like? I can think of hands with that shape where I wouldn't X; they are infrequent but I wouldn't rule it out.

4) Takeout. I don't think this should be as sound as bidding 2C, but I would NOT double with say 4144 12 HCP or whatever like many people seem to do.

And to re-iterate, I think this is one auction where people frequently overbid when they should not.

[nige1]

IMO, After 1♦ (_X) _P (1♥); ??

• 2♣ = Natural. 5+ ♦ 4+ ♣.
  
• 3♣ = Stronger. Concentrated 5+ ♦ 5+ ♣.
  
• 2♥ = Artificial. Ask for ♥ stop, in the 1st instance.
  
• _X = T/O e.g. 4153.

[kenrexford]

Jlall, on Apr 16 2010, 12:42 PM, said:

Hi Ken,

1) I am a believer that people bid much too aggressively in this situation. Given partners pass, I think 2C should be a good hand, most often 5-5 but sometimes you have like 1354 18 or something, so I don't think it guarantees 5-5 (without 5-5 I have SIGNIFICANT extras though).

2) This is not forcing, but shows a strong distributional hand. Something like x xx AKQxx AKQxx would be typical. Could obv be less strong in terms of HCP with 6-5.

3) I think this is often based on a diamond one suiter, but not necssarily (could be a super strong minors hand that didn't want to open 2C for tactical reasons). Could this be 3064 or the like? I can think of hands with that shape where I wouldn't X; they are infrequent but I wouldn't rule it out.

4) Takeout. I don't think this should be as sound as bidding 2C, but I would NOT double with say 4144 12 HCP or whatever like many people seem to do.

And to re-iterate, I think this is one auction where people frequently overbid when they should not.

Of course, you know I overbid in this situation last night. I wondered if this was typical, or just me.

It seems to me like 3♣ is the one call that shows almost anything -- take away the two-level and make 'em guess. I'm curious why you think people bid too much here. I mean, maybe it pushes them into things more than it detracts.

[Phil]

I am a strong believer that 3♣ is preemptive.

[jjbrr]

I would have thought 2NT is preemptive, but perhaps they should be swapped.

[Jlall]

kenrexford, on Apr 16 2010, 03:54 PM, said:

I'm curious why you think people bid too much here. I mean, maybe it pushes them into things more than it detracts.

Once partner has shown not much, I just view it as their hand if I also have not much. Almost always they'll end up playing it, and they'll play it MUCH better if I tell them stuff about my shape.

So when I bid I'd like to have a reasonable shot of buying it for a partial and making, or finding a nice save, or finding a making game ourselves. I no longer want to bid for the nuisance factor, whatever I gain in preempting them I think I lose more in them declaring more accurately. Not to mention that if you bid with shitty hands it's very easy to get you for a number, and that doesn't seem like a worthwhile risk.

If you bid with crappy hands you're losing on hands when you genuinely have a bid (wider range means less accurate saving/competing etc from pard obv), and I think you lose even when you have a bad hand from helping them declare and possibly from going for a number.

Just my view, obviously you can gain from making the auction hard for them also.

[Pict]

I agree with ducking out when partner is very weak.

It is interesting that in the bad old days in the UK this was used as an argument against weak twos - telling the oppos too much on weak hands.

But that was almost certainly commercial with a bit of hangover from rubber bridge.

But who knows, there is probably still a bit of room for new ideas in competitive auctions.