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1D (1H) ?

#1 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2010-April-14, 12:28

We play an artificial 1D (10-15 w/ 0+ diamonds).
Over 1H interference we play

dbl-negative or GF with a suit
1S-5 spades
1N-natural
2m-nf
2H-undiscussed but probably GF cue asking for stopper
2S-weak
2N-weak, minors
3m-weak

so I'm responder and hold xxx Ax xxxx AKxx

1N shows a stopper and as many as 11, but this is a nice 11 and I don't really want to declare.
I chose dbl and hoped to raise 1N to 2N.

Seems like we need better ways to sort out minors and balanced hands. We don't have enough ways to force

How about

dbl-spades
1S-suggests NT or could be competitive with a minor
1N-natural
2C-forcing
2D-forcing
2H-another spade hand?
2S-weak
2N-minors
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#2 User is offline   rwbarton 

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Posted 2010-April-14, 13:24

Somewhat off-topic, but am I right in thinking that artificial continuations (e.g. 1S denies spades) in this auction are not GCC legal in the ACBL, even when 1D is artificial (10-15, 0+ diamonds)?
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#3 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2010-April-14, 13:31

Yeah I got penalized once in the national fast pairs for playing 1S=denies spades....I guess it was a national GCC event!

Straube, your suggested sequence is very common/good. I'd recommend keeping 2N natural though (sometimes you want to play from your side), and using 3C for both minors.

Also, use X=4-5 spades, 2H=6+ spades constructive or better, 2S=6+ spades weak.
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#4 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2010-April-14, 14:11

Over a symmetric 1 which always has a major we play a negative double emphasizes the minors.
Wayne Burrows

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dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
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#5 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2010-April-14, 14:19

If you are playing GCC you can just play the same thing with 1S being 4-5 spades, and X denying spades.

This is slightly worse because you'd like to bid 1D (1H) X p 1S with 3, and 2S with 4, but it's not a huge deal.
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#6 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2010-April-14, 14:28

Unfortunately, we usually are playing GCC. Thanks for the feedback.
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#7 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2010-April-14, 14:42

Here's a scheme that could work:

1D - (1H):

X: Denying S, could be GF bal hand / forcing with a minor
1S: 4-5 spades, forcing
1N: Natural
2m: NF
2H: 6+S, game interest
2S: 6+ S, NF
2N: Natural invite
3C: Both Minors
3N: TP

One possibility is to replace 2N+ with Rubensohl-like semantics.

It would work similarly over 1D - (1S) as well:

X: 4-5 hearts
1N: Natural
2x: NF
2S: 6+ H, GI (or 5H and a minor)
2N: Natural invite
3C: Minors
3N: TP
foobar on BBO
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#8 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2010-April-14, 15:20

For those who play that dbl denies four spades, what does a 1S rebid by opener show?

Should dbl deny five spades but not deny four?
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#9 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2010-April-14, 21:01

akhare, on Apr 14 2010, 03:42 PM, said:

Here's a scheme that could work:

1D - (1H):

X: Denying S, could be GF bal hand / forcing with a minor
1S: 4-5 spades, forcing
1N: Natural
2m: NF
2H: 6+S, game interest
2S: 6+ S, NF
2N: Natural invite
3C: Both Minors
3N: TP

One possibility is to replace 2N+ with Rubensohl-like semantics.

It would work similarly over 1D - (1S) as well:

X: 4-5 hearts
1N: Natural
2x: NF
2S: 6+ H, GI (or 5H and a minor)
2N: Natural invite
3C: Minors
3N: TP

The trouble is that after suit interference, we're already out of system. Say it goes 1D (1H) 1S
and opener has xxx xx KQxx AKxx, he may judge to raise spades here. He may rebid 1N with
Ax xxxx AKx Jxxx. I mean, what else?

So we don't really have the tools we might otherwise have for 1D-1S, 1N. The 2H cue (unless otherwise defined) serves as a forcing bid while other bids are natural.

It seems like responder will frequently have a difficult time describing his hand if he's (for example) 2-suited with spades and a minor. It's hard for him to bid 1S with both Kxxx x xx Axxxxx as well as KQxx xx Ax AKxxxx. With the former, he'll want to bid 1S and then 2C (if possible). With the latter, he'll want to bid 2C and then 2S.

I would rather lose out on the NFBs and place them into the double hand. Some of them will be pleased to hear partner rebid 1N anyway. Something like Kx xxx xxx AQJxx.

I'm still wondering what 1D (1H) dbl (P) 1S ought to show. Maybe just natural with no heart stopper.

Jlall have any ideas?
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#10 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2010-April-14, 21:41

straube, on Apr 14 2010, 10:01 PM, said:

It seems like responder will frequently have a difficult time describing his hand if he's (for example) 2-suited with spades and a minor.  It's hard for him to bid 1S with both Kxxx x xx Axxxxx as well as KQxx xx Ax AKxxxx.  With the former, he'll want to bid 1S and then 2C (if possible).  With the latter, he'll want to bid 2C and then 2S.

Here's how Ambra (by Garozzo and others) handles the problem -- some responses switched:

1D - (1H)

X: 8-10 bal or 11+ bal
1: 4+
1N: Transfer to
2C: Transfer to either TP or GF
2D: Constructive, NF
2H: 5+ , 5+ , forcing one round
2S: 6+
2N: 6+ , GI

Over:

1D - (1S)

X: 4+ H, or GF bal
1N: Bal hand, NF
2C: Transfer to either TP or GF
2D: Transfer to
2H: 5+ s, constructive
2S: 5+H, 5+ C, F1
2N: 6+ , GI
foobar on BBO
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#11 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2010-April-15, 00:15

akhare, on Apr 14 2010, 10:41 PM, said:

straube, on Apr 14 2010, 10:01 PM, said:

It seems like responder will frequently have a difficult time describing his hand if he's (for example) 2-suited with spades and a minor.  It's hard for him to bid 1S with both Kxxx x xx Axxxxx as well as KQxx xx Ax AKxxxx.  With the former, he'll want to bid 1S and then 2C (if possible).  With the latter, he'll want to bid 2C and then 2S.

Here's how Ambra (by Garozzo and others) handles the problem -- some responses switched:

1D - (1H)

X: 8-10 bal or 11+ bal
1: 4+
1N: Transfer to
2C: Transfer to either TP or GF
2D: Constructive, NF
2H: 5+ , 5+ , forcing one round
2S: 6+
2N: 6+ , GI

Over:

1D - (1S)

X: 4+ H, or GF bal
1N: Bal hand, NF
2C: Transfer to either TP or GF
2D: Transfer to
2H: 5+ s, constructive
2S: 5+H, 5+ C, F1
2N: 6+ , GI

I'm first off wondering if their 1D is natural or not. It looks like it's made for a natural 1D.
I also wonder if it's GCC legal. Can the 2-level bids be transfers? I'm thinking yes, but I'm not sure. I know Bergen uses Switch and Rubin's transfer advances seem to be legal. But 1D (1H) 1S apparently has to be natural because it's at the 1-level? Is this right?
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#12 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2010-April-15, 01:12

straube, on Apr 15 2010, 01:15 AM, said:

I also wonder if it's GCC legal. Can the 2-level bids be transfers? I'm thinking yes, but I'm not sure. I know Bergen uses Switch and Rubin's transfer advances seem to be legal. But 1D (1H) 1S apparently has to be natural because it's at the 1-level? Is this right?

I don't think non-GF artificial bids are GCC after a natural overcall, i.e. 1X-(1Y). The short version is non-jump new suit bids basically have to be natural.

The long version... Transfers by advancer as specifically allowed, but not by responder after interference in general. Doubles are special in this regard, in that both 1) you can always use double for anything, and 2) if they double, you can play anything you want (like transfers). Jumps and 2-3NT bids are also allowed as raises (fitted or otherwise) or artificial GFs. I suppose you can still play 1H-(1S)-1N as forcing on a wide range of hands if you really wanted. 1N overcalls also allow any defense, subject to the "no woolsey" rule about known suits for 2D+.
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#13 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2010-April-15, 10:54

2) if they double *artifically*, you can play anything you want on the GCC. If 1D-X means "I have diamonds and want to defend" you're still on natural turf. Anybody play penalty doubles here?
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#14 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2010-April-16, 12:21

So we're thinking of using 1D (1H) 1N as something other than natural.

GCC legal? Sensical?

For instance, it could be a forcing or semiforcing NT suggesting diamonds or minors.

Is it very important to keep 1N natural there? We're not getting to game, right?

I keep thinking that lots of folks play 1D artificial and what are their methods?
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#15 User is online   straube 

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Posted 2010-April-16, 21:45

1D (1H)

dbl-balanced hand OR minors OR diamonds
.....1S-?
.....1N-?
.....2C-?
.....2D-?
1S-four spades
.....1N-balanced or short spades, doesn't promise a stopper
..........2m-5m
1N-five spades
.....2C-minors (could be 1-4-5-3 or 1-4-3-5)
.....2D-6 diamonds
.....2H-good spade raise
.....2S-bad spade raise, possibly xx
2C-nf-5 clubs any quality with 8-12 hcp
2D-f, diamonds
2H-GF, clubs
2S-GF 5S/5m
2N-inv
3L-preempt
3H-forces 3N

1D (1S)

dbl-noninv takeout of spades with 3 hearts OR 4 hearts OR bal inv OR GF hearts planning to rebid 2H
.....1N-bal or short hearts, promises no stopper
..........2m-4H, 5m
..........2H-GF hearts
1N-minors OR diamonds
2C-nf, 5 clubs any quality with 8-12 hcp
2D-f, diamonds
2H-nf, 5 hearts of good quality with 8-12 hcp
2S-GF clubs
2N-inv
3L-preempt
3S-forces 3N
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