[Jlall]

Say you are 3433 or 3442 or 3424 and it goes 3D X p ? and you have enough to bid game, but dont want to bid 3N or pass.

What % of the time would you bid 4D vs 4H?

[awm]

While people disagree with me on this (apparently), I think with 3433 it is normally best to play in hearts. Even if we have a 5-3 fit in a black suit, the ruffing value is normally in takeout doubler's hand so the 4-3 fit might be better. So with 3433 I would almost always bid 4♥ and not 4♦. Perhaps if the hearts are truly dreadful I might make an exception, but I'd say 4♥ 95% of the time.

With 3442, presumably my diamonds are quite weak since I don't want to pass or bid 3NT. So again, the ruffs are going to be in partner's hand and I'm bidding 4♥ 95% of the time.

With 3424 it seems normal to try 4♦ unless the hearts are really strong, since potentially my hand can ruff diamonds and there could be a nine-card club fit (which is probably better than a 4-3 heart fit). I'd say 4♦ about 85% of the time and 4♥ the rest.

[Jlall]

How are you planning to get to clubs?

[awm]

Jlall, on Apr 13 2010, 01:39 AM, said:

How are you planning to get to clubs?

Well I think that 4♦ is "two places to play" normally and if partner bids 4♠ over it I will try 5♣. Obviously this could be problematic if partner has a 5323 hand, but I don't normally double on that shape unless holding a lot of extras.

[gnasher]

I agree with everything awm has said.

[pooltuna]

Jlall, on Apr 13 2010, 12:03 AM, said:

Say you are 3433 or 3442 or 3424 and it goes 3D X p ? and you have enough to bid game, but dont want to bid 3N or pass.

What % of the time would you bid 4D vs 4H?

Haven't given it much thought before now so probably 0%. However it is probably always (in a bridge context,i.e. 99%) correct to bid 4♦ since with 44xy partner will hopefully always choose ♥ and with 5xyz where x<5 he will choose ♠ and thus you are more likely to end up in an 8+ card fit rather than a 7+ card fit. This appears to make 4♦ less useful as a slam inquiry start.

[jdonn]

3433 I bid 4♦ and partner will bid 4♥ holding 4 of them anyway. We will often get to an equal fit than if I bid 4♥ myself but never a worse fit and sometimes a better one.

3442 the same I suppose since partner must always bid a major unless he has extras. 3325 and 3334 will bid 4♥. But perhaps there it's better to bid 4♥ myself because I'd rather play the 4-3 heart fit than spade fit. To be honest this shape was weird to think about anyway since either 3NT or pass would normally be very attractive.

3424 I would definitely bid 4♦ and I would pull 4♠ to 5♣. This will be wrong some of the time but I think it's with the odds, given that spades can easily be a 7 card fit and clubs will usually be an 8 or 9 card fit (given that partner doesn't have 4 hearts).

[mikeh]

I go with adam, and I would normally not worry about missing clubs when partner bids 4♠ over my 4♦ when I am 3=4=2=4.

For one thing, he may be 5314, and spades scores more and makes more often than clubs.

The exception would be when I have significant extra values, and chunky clubs, such that I would expect to do well in clubs...and especially if my spades were weak.

While I know that minor suit games are not anathema at imps, they still require only 2 losers while 4Major has that extra safety margin.

Since I rarely hold extras, I would estimate that I would pull 4♠ to 5♣ maybe 5-10% of the time.

Question: on what kind of hand should doubler consider raising 5♣ after the sequence 4♦ then 5♣? If the answer is 'rarely' or 'never', how do we find our 4=4 or 5=4 (advancer is say 2425) club slams?

To me, this sequence shows extras and thus my doubler can raise to slam more frequently, but this is surely a style issue.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Apr 13 2010, 11:54 AM, said:

I go with adam, and I would normally not worry about missing clubs when partner bids 4♠ over my 4♦ when I am 3=4=2=4.

So you do not go with adam then...

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Apr 13 2010, 01:19 PM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 13 2010, 11:54 AM, said:

I go with adam, and I would normally not worry about missing clubs when partner bids 4♠ over my 4♦ when I am 3=4=2=4.

So you do not go with adam then...

yeah...I shoulda read both his posts...oh well, there he was doing so well the first one

[awm]

Some of this is probably a style issue. For example:

(1) Can doubler have 5♠ and 3♥ without substantial extras? In my style the answer is not really (perhaps an exception if the spades are very poor), because I'd expect to reach a lot of bad 4-3 heart fits by doubling on such hands, and I'm not particularly uncomfortable overcalling on five-card suits. But some people love to double whenever it's an option.

(2) Suppose doubler has 4-5♠ and 4♥. What is his bid over 4♦? I'd bid 4♥ but I'm sure some would pick the longer/better major.

(3) Suppose doubler has a 3325 hand. What is his bid over 4♦? I'd bid 4♥, but I'm sure some would again pick the better major or even bid 5♣.

Given my set of answers, since I would almost never double with 5♠/3♥ and I would not bid 4♠ over the 4♦ call with 5♠/4♥, it's highly unlikely that after I cuebid 4♦ and hear 4♠, partner has five spades. So passing is exchanging one 4-3 fit for another, whereas a big club fit is virtually guaranteed (partner's 4♠ is normally 4324 or 4315 shape). This is why I correct 4♠ to a club contract.

If you expect partner to often double with 5♠-3♥, or to bid 4♠ on this sequence with 5♠-4♥, then correcting to clubs is a lot iffier and could push past the right contract. This also increases the odds that bidding 4♦ on a 3433/3442 hand is right (since partner often has five spades and will bid them over 4♦).

If your style is to often bid the better major over the 4♦ bid with equal length, or to consider the 4♦ bid to normally be a slam try, then jumping to 4♥ obviously becomes a big favorite.