[bluecalm]

There are some treatments when you use 3NT in cuebidding to show things other than willingness to play.
The two most popular are:
a)serious/frivolous 3NT
b)3NT showing a hand without shortness and cuebids being from shortness.

I think those two can be improved in the following way:
-if ♠ are trumps nothing changes
-if ♥ are trumps the meaning of 3NT and 3♠ calls is reversed. 3NT bid after 3♠ (which is now serious/frivolous/no shortness) indicates ♠ cue.

What you gain:
♠ cue is not lost due to usage of 3nt and you don't need to go above game to find out about it.

Classical version:
1♥ 2♣
2♥ 3♥
3NT (no shortness!) - 4♣
4♦ - here we don't know about ♠ cue

My version:
1♥ 2♣
2♥ 3♥
3♠ (no shortness) - 3NT = I have ♠ cuebid, 4♣ would deny it.

What you lose:
nothing ?!

Comments ?

[jdonn]

I "came up with" this too (meaning I independently thought of it but I'm sure I was not the first) long ago and have been playing it in several partnerships for over 5 years. I came up with every auction I could think of where hearts are trumps and it makes sense to switch certain spade/notrump bids. I'm sure in most/all cases I was not the first to think of it. A couple examples:

1NT 2♣, 2♥
4♠ as quantitative with 4 spades in case opener wants to pass, 4NT as exclusion in spades.

1♥ 3♥ (or whatever), 4NT 5♥
5♠ as the king ask with 5NT showing the spade king, 5NT as an ask about spades.

etc.

Btw there are plenty of other meanings of 3NT after trumps are agreed. Justin and I played it was natural and NF but promised extras, which helped for both game and slam bidding.

[gnasher]

When I "invented" this idea, I took the precaution of making a public written record of my invention:

RGB Posting, 18th November 2000

[jdonn]

Wow I'm more impressed you can find that post.

So the interesting questions are who was the first and when did they think of it?

[rwbarton]

If you decide to play this make sure to discuss auctions like

1♠ - 2♥
3♥ - 3♠ frivolous or ♠ raise?

For those who play frivolous 3♠, what does this 3♠ mean for you?

[Jlall]

I also "came up" with this, then I learned that jdonn had "come up" with it...then I learned that it dates to pre-jdonn!

Spade/NT switches over hearts come up pretty frequently in a lot of auctions. Friv 3S worked really well for me irl, and is obviously very logical.

[cherdanno]

Jlall, on Apr 2 2010, 01:50 PM, said:

Spade/NT switches over hearts come up pretty frequently in a lot of auctions.

Let's see:
At the one level: Kaplan inversion
At the two level: 1H 2H 2S = unspecified shortness, 1H 2H 2N = spade game try
At the 3-level: frivolous 3S/serious spade cue 3N
At the 4-level: kickback
At the 5-level: beats me

[awm]

cherdanno, on Apr 2 2010, 01:53 PM, said:

At the 5-level: beats me

5♠ asking specific kings after reply to keycard (or kickback of course); 5NT as specific suit ask in spades.

[Jlall]

awm, on Apr 2 2010, 01:55 PM, said:

cherdanno, on Apr 2 2010, 01:53 PM, said:

At the 5-level: beats me

5♠ asking specific kings after reply to keycard (or kickback of course); 5NT as specific suit ask in spades.

Yeah and then over 5S king ask, 5N can show the SK etc.

[Cascade]

Its an application of the useful space principle.

Jeff Rubens wrote about that principle in 1980.

His first example is using 3♠/3NT to show an undisclosed shortage.

Over the years I have used this principle in many situations:

modifying Jacoby 2NT (or similar forcing raise);

2♠/2NT enquiry over weak twos;

4♠ Ace asking with hearts agreed (with or without kickback in the minors);

5♠ Grand Slam Force over hearts;

In some cue-bidding auctions we use the extra step created by no trumps to show extras (an abundance of queens and jacks or maybe extra shape) but with nothing to cue. When hearts are agreed 4♠ shows the extras and 4NT is a spade cue;

Serious 3♠/3NT and later we changed to frivolous 3♠/3NT.

There are probably more.

Once you know the general idea of the "useful space principle" its trivial to apply it to different situations.

[Free]

This is nothing new. Ever since kickback RKC was introduced this was extended to lower and higher levels (could be the other way around, don't know, it's around since so long!).

Whenever ♥ are trumps, "normal" meanings of ♠ and NT are swapped.

[bluecalm]

Ok guys At least I tried to introduce something "new"; will do more research next time....

[kenrexford]

You'll have to work REAL HARD to come up with something new to the Bridge Base Forums crowd. LOL

[gnasher]

Cascade, on Apr 2 2010, 08:14 PM, said:

Its an application of the useful space principle.

Jeff Rubens wrote about that principle in 1980.

I suspect that Romex game-tries preceded this.

[glen]

Exactly - lots of useful space ideas were going on before the principle got named and documented by JR

[Free]

kenrexford, on Apr 3 2010, 01:28 AM, said:

You'll have to work REAL HARD to come up with something new to the Bridge Base Forums crowd. LOL

Something new isn't that difficult, something NEW that's also GOOD will indeed be difficult

[Radrag]

This might be from the 60's:

http://www.bridgehan..._Asking_Bid.htm

[ulven]

Free, on Apr 6 2010, 03:14 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Apr 3 2010, 01:28 AM, said:

You'll have to work REAL HARD to come up with something new to the Bridge Base Forums crowd.  LOL

Something new isn't that difficult, something NEW that's also GOOD will indeed be difficult

Well, I happen to think I've done that. But it goes into an article instead of the forum. Got one accepted for TBW, another one to be submitted.

Edit: Above refers to cuebidding. Submitted articles on other bidding areas as well.

[bluecalm]

Any way to view it online somewhere in the future ?