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Problem after Kokish

#1 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 07:31

xxxx
K10
Qxx
108xx

2C - 2D (values)
2H (forces 2S) - 2S (forced)
3C (natural, hearts and clubs) - ??

Pairs, forgot about vulnerability.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#2 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 07:51

I'd def bid 3H.
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#3 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 07:53

not used of the methods, but I think this showes longer or equal hearts, I'd also bid 3 focusing on the most likelly game. With something stronger (add Q for example), 4 would be more appealing.
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#4 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 07:56

3, partner can still show more about his hand. Eventually we can still get to 6 in many cases if necessary.
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#5 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 07:58

4, focussing on the most likely slam. Opposite AKx AQJxx x AKQx, which is not necessarily a 2 opener, and where 2/5 of our points are completely wasted, slam is in the high 60s. That heart holding is really good for a club contact.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#6 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 09:08

Jlall, on Mar 31 2010, 08:51 AM, said:

I'd def bid 3H.

Me too. I am close to a minimum and its pairs.

4 is chasing moonbeams.
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#7 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 09:20

Agree with gnasher, I think slam will make pretty often.
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#8 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 09:20

gnasher, on Mar 31 2010, 08:58 AM, said:

Opposite AKx AQJxx x AKQx, which is not necessarily a 2 opener

How is this not necessarily a 2C opener?
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#9 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 09:33

Jlall, on Mar 31 2010, 10:20 AM, said:

gnasher, on Mar 31 2010, 08:58 AM, said:

Opposite AKx AQJxx x AKQx, which is not necessarily a 2 opener

How is this not necessarily a 2C opener?

And I thought my 2 opening requirements were high.

Absolute 2 opener.

As for the original problem, I bid 3. I have one sure cover card (the K) opposite a 3 or less loser hand (the typical loser count for a 2 opening). The Q is a potential cover card if partner has diamond length. In any event, it is not clear that slam is in the picture. For example, partner could have a solid 2 opener like this one:

AKQ AQJxx x AKxx

Slam is virtually hopeless on this hand (on a non-diamond lead 6 has a chance).

If partner moves towards slam I will try to offer a choice of slams. If the club fit is solid, clubs is likely to be a better place to play slam. For example:

x AQJxx Ax AKQxx

Now this hand is a borderline 2 opening, but 6 rates to be easy.
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#10 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 13:46

rather than offer a choice Art, if given the opportunity I will try to impose clubs for slam :)
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#11 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 14:23

Fluffy, on Mar 31 2010, 02:46 PM, said:

rather than offer a choice Art, if given the opportunity I will try to impose clubs for slam :)

If you bid 3 over 3, can you really impose clubs as the trump suit later in the auction? If not, do you recommend bidding 4 now?
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#12 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 14:45

yeah yeah, I know what you mean, was just a joke.

If partner bids 4 next I think it is time to make it clear that we wanna play clubs, with a raise to the 6 level he should get the message.
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#13 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 14:49

Jlall, on Mar 31 2010, 04:20 PM, said:

gnasher, on Mar 31 2010, 08:58 AM, said:

Opposite AKx AQJxx x AKQx, which is not necessarily a 2 opener

How is this not necessarily a 2C opener?

It seems to have grown in high cards since I created it.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#14 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 15:06

ArtK78, on Mar 31 2010, 04:33 PM, said:

For example, partner could have a solid 2 opener like this one:

AKQ AQJxx x AKxx

Slam is virtually hopeless on this hand (on a non-diamond lead 6 has a chance).

So what? 4 doesn't compel us to bid slam.

It's true that 5 is a worse game than 4, but that's what happens if you construct a hand where none of his minor honours are in clubs. If he had AKQ AQxxx x AKJx we'd be better off in 5 than 4.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#15 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 15:10

I would bid 3. This shouldn't rule out a club contract, altho we may need sophisticated agreements, or luck, to get back to the suit. I have never discussed this with any partner, and I know the sequences are not directly comparable, but in a sequence such as 1  1  3  3, virtually all experts would, I think, stall with 3 on most hands containing K10 in hearts and xxxx in clubs. I appreciate that one major difference is that after a kokish auction, 3 is 'real' whereas the jumpshift may be a distortion necessitated by the need to create a force. However, the same needs apply: a desire to keep the bidding low rather than committing to a suit that may be far too weak for slam or even game purposes. In addition, this is mps where 10 tricks in hearts outscores 11 in clubs.

I do think that opener, with a slam suitable 2-suiter, should bid 4 naturally rather than as a cue bid. Then we raise to 5 or 6 depending on our partnership's view of the minimum strength of a 2-suited 2 opening....it should have play even if it is poor...they probably have to guess which pointed suit to lead to have any chance of beating it.

The need to use 4 over 3 as natural is not too much of a problem since he will rarely have unilateral slam interest without a spade control, so he can start slamtries with 3...which I do NOT think should be natural, patterning out...or am I allowing this hand and auction to influence me?
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#16 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 18:26

hanp, on Mar 31 2010, 08:31 AM, said:

xxxx K10 Qxx 108xx
2C - 2D (values)
2H (forces 2S) - 2S (forced)
3C (natural, hearts and clubs) - ??
Pairs, forgot about vulnerability.
I like the Kokish convention. IMO, with a fit but without support, you should try to bid at the 3-level to keep 3N in the frame. Hence, bids at the 4-level normally show a double fit. Anyway, whatever it means, a 4 bid doesn't preclude either player from suggesting 4 as a contract -- by bidding it. In principle, a return to the major at the 4 level offers a choice of games. Hence ...
4 = 10, 4 = 9, 3 = 5.

BTW, my marks are simply a way of expressing the degree of my preference between calls that I consider making. Not a patronising attempt to rate other poster's comments.
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#17 User is offline   cherdanno 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 20:18

gnasher, on Mar 31 2010, 04:06 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Mar 31 2010, 04:33 PM, said:

For example, partner could have a solid 2 opener like this one:

AKQ AQJxx x AKxx

Slam is virtually hopeless on this hand (on a non-diamond lead 6 has a chance).

So what? 4 doesn't compel us to bid slam.

It's true that 5 is a worse game than 4, but that's what happens if you construct a hand where none of his minor honours are in clubs. If he had AKQ AQxxx x AKJx we'd be better off in 5 than 4.

I think the scoring is matchpoints. I would raise to 4 at IMPs but at matchpoints raising clubs almost seems like betting we have slam.

Last time I thought about this auction I thought 3 should show a fit. The difference to the jump shift auction is obvious - we are much more likely to have a heart fit (as we couldn't raise hearts before), and partner is unlimited. I think showing a fit here is really important.

Maybe I would bid 3H anyway, or I would bid 4C and hope partner can bid 4H (which I would pass), I still don't know...
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#18 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2010-April-01, 01:03

At imps always 4,
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#19 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-April-01, 01:34

It's not imps.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#20 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2010-April-01, 01:57

cherdanno, on Mar 31 2010, 06:18 PM, said:

Last time I thought about this auction I thought 3 should show a fit. The difference to the jump shift auction is obvious - we are much more likely to have a heart fit (as we couldn't raise hearts before), and partner is unlimited. I think showing a fit here is really important.

Maybe I would bid 3H anyway, or I would bid 4C and hope partner can bid 4H (which I would pass), I still don't know...

Or you could play the kokish version I like where 3s shows a real fit and 3h can be a doubleton (and you show spades by bidding 2h-2n).

I would also bid 4c and hope that partner bids 4h.
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