[Fluffy]

♠10xx
♥AJxx
♦Kxxxx
♣x


nobody vul, MPs

pass-(pass)-1♥-(1NT)

If you had no methods or played with pick up partner, what would you do now?

[helene_t]

I think I would improvise 2NT followed by 3♥. He may take 2NT as showing the minors but when I correct to 3♥ he probably understands.

[pooltuna]

helene_t, on Mar 29 2010, 07:51 AM, said:

I think I would improvise 2NT followed by 3♥. He may take 2NT as showing the minors but when I correct to 3♥ he probably understands.

Isn't 2NT your qbid here?

[bluecalm]

I am bidding game.
I think invites with distributional hands aren't worth much anyway.
I bid 4♥ even if I have invitational bid in my system unless somehow it's on 2level, then I can consider it but this hand is worth too much probably.

EDIT: actually I think bidding anything but game is very bad

[mikeh]

If I had no methods, and was playing matchpoints, as stipulated, I'd bid 3♥.

Anyone who suggests that 2N is the cuebid ignored the conditions of contest: we don't have any agreements, so making one up is silly. Maybe he should work it out, but why incur the anxiety for both of you as he scratches his head, and looks confused when the opps ask him what your call meant?

Our choices seem to be:

1. 2♥: very conservative, ensures a plus score, unless partner is a complete psyche, and even then may make

2. 3♥: the value bid if he understands it....it isn't conventional and must either be preemptive or invitational...we'd hope he guessed invitational. I think he should....

3. 4♥: may make (if we didn't think 4♥ had play on some hands, why even consider an invitational 3♥) but seems very unilateral given partner's 3rd hand status.

I don't list double...for reasons that will be obvious.

[jdonn]

I consider this a game force for certain. When you have a shortness you can't show then how is partner supposed to evaluate correctly opposite an invitation? Plus all our cards appear to be finessable over the 1NT overcall, plus partner will play the hand well due to the 1NT overcall.

I can't believe some of the hands on the forums on which people try to stop on a dime lately.

And yes 2NT can be the start of a limit raise in hearts, though who knows if you should try it out with an unknown partner, probably not.

And I'm sure even without discussion 3♥ is preemptive and you would double first with an invitation. If you tell me it stinks to have to do that then you are right which is why 2NT is what it is.

[kfay]

I'm with Mike. Partner's a 3rd hand opener, how can I game force unless I'm living in 1960?

2NT and I would bid this opposite anyone competent enough to know it's not natural.

[jdonn]

kfay, on Mar 29 2010, 10:54 AM, said:

I'm with Mike.  Partner's a 3rd hand opener, how can I game force unless I'm living in 1960?

Opposite some light 3rd seat openers we make game anyway. Opposite some others they make 4♠. Opposite some others they make 2/3♠ and we get a normal or good result going down. Opposite some others they have to double us to get a good score but they won't.

If partner doesn't have an opening hand when he opens the bidding then that's his problem. You are expected to bid on the assumption he has an opener, not put yourself in a bad position when he has normal minimum openers.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Mar 29 2010, 10:32 AM, said:

I consider this a game force for certain. When you have a shortness you can't show then how is partner supposed to evaluate correctly opposite an invitation? Plus all our cards appear to be finessable over the 1NT overcall, plus partner will play the hand well due to the 1NT overcall.

I can't believe some of the hands on the forums on which people try to stop on a dime lately.

And yes 2NT can be the start of a limit raise in hearts, though who knows if you should try it out with an unknown partner, probably not.

And I'm sure even without discussion 3♥ is preemptive and you would double first with an invitation. If you tell me it stinks to have to do that then you are right which is why 2NT is what it is.

If you feel that the choice is really between 2♥ and 4♥, because we can't risk 3♥ (he'll think it is weak) or 2N (he may be confused) then I agree...this has to be 4♥..... 2♥ would be woefully weak, not to mention making it far too easy for them to get together in a black suit.

And you may be right...maybe a pickup partner will (correctly?) take an undiscussed 3♥ as weak. Clearly, it is best played that way IF you have 2N available....but in a method(?) where you have no agreements, which is better to have? A limit bid or a preemptive bid? I'm not sure, but I lean towards the limit.

Of course, none of this matters in any kind of partnership, where this will have been discussed.

BTW, I would always bid game at imps...even white...and since white at imps is more or less the same as mps in terms of percentage playability, maybe my limit approach is too timid anyway.

[OleBerg]

4♥

If it depends on a finesse in hearts, we know it's on.

Three small spades are not so hot, but it doesn't take much to imagine the strong hand being endplayed throughout.

[Jlall]

No methods with a pickup partner is still too wide of a range I think, I would expect any advanced+ player to know what 2N meant here. This is an exaggeration but it seems like saying we can't bid 1H p 1S without any agreements, it's just a really basic auction and even if they had never seen it if they had any bridge knowledge at all they could figure it out.

With a very inexperienced/weak partner I would just bid 4H.

[ggwhiz]

Given the methods and/or unfamiliar partner, I'll double and lead a heart.

If pard or one of them pulls to 2 clubs (or 3), I can bid 3 hearts now.

Perhaps pard should know what 2 notrump means but this won't cause us to lose a board while he works it out. Besides isn't this a stronger invite to game? (not sure)

[655321]

ggwhiz, on Mar 29 2010, 07:25 PM, said:

Given the methods and/or unfamiliar partner, I'll double and lead a heart.

If pard or one of them pulls to 2 clubs (or 3), I can bid 3 hearts now.

Unlucky, they just cashed 5 club tricks, the ♥K and an Ace in 1NTX while you are cold for 4♥.

[the hog]

ggwhiz, on Mar 30 2010, 07:25 AM, said:

Given the methods and/or unfamiliar partner, I'll double and lead a heart.

If pard or one of them pulls to 2 clubs (or 3), I can bid 3 hearts now.

Perhaps pard should know what 2 notrump means but this won't cause us to lose a board while he works it out. Besides isn't this a stronger invite to game? (not sure)

Who says this will end the auction?
With no agreements I would simply bid 3H.

[aguahombre]

OleBerg, on Mar 29 2010, 12:23 PM, said:

4♥

If it depends on a finesse in hearts, we know it's on.

See "RUNT"

[Mbodell]

Obviously with pickup of varying ability undiscussed you don't want to try anything too crazy. But for me the bid that I think about is 3♦. In certain populations I'd expect partner to assume fit jumps by passed hand, particularly if we were playing a weak 2 in diamonds so a preemptive hand is unlikely by my opening pass.

But against random unknown and undiscussed I'd bid the old 4♥ game try.

[Codo]

My partner opened in 3. seat? On a pesimistic day, I would bid just 2 ♥, so here I try 2 NT, partner will understand my following heart bid.
3♥ would not be invitational to me