[jdonn]

Scoring: IMP

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West opened 1♥ playing precision (natural 5+, limited to 15 points). East responded 1♠. South overcalled 2♠ natural, west rebid 3♥, and north ended the auction with a jump to 4♠.

As the hand got played out there was a full count on hearts being 6-2 and diamonds being 3-3. West had also played the queen of clubs on the first lead toward dummy. Declarer had a trump coup available if west had essentially x AKQxxx QJx QTx but would go down if west had Jx AKQxxx QJx Qx (ie - if east had psyched 1♠ with xxx xx xxx KTxxx). Declarer wanted to ask west if east has psyched that bid before or psychs often, but didn't want east to be there to hear. This exchange ensued.

South: Could you please leave the table for a moment? (to East)
East: Why?
South: So I can ask your partner a question.
East: I don't think I have to leave, I'm entitled to hear any question you ask just like my partner is. Anyway if you want to call the director and see if he will ask me to leave then that is fine.
South: Never mind.

Questions: Was anyone out of line? Should south not have asked, or should east have left? If anyone had called the director (either before or after the exchange) then what should he have done?

[aguahombre]

I seem to remember another topic, some time ago which touched on this.

East, who has no idea --in theory --what you are going to ask, is right. If a question about carding or system is asked and answered incorrectly according to partnership agreements --he needs to know that in order to correct the explanation at the proper time.

I don't understand South giving up, though. East offered to call and abide by the TD's decision. Why not take him up on that?

that covers my take on "out of line". I don't think anyone was. What the director would do if called is out of my league.

[Cascade]

I don't think a player has the right to ask another player to leave the table.

[Sadie3]

The player has the right to call a TD whenever there is an irregularity and should do so. I don't think a player has the right to tell another player to do anything.

[jdonn]

Sadie3, on Mar 22 2010, 02:16 PM, said:

The player has the right to call a TD whenever there is an irregularity and should do so. I don't think a player has the right to tell another player to do anything.

What irregularity has there been?

And he didn't tell him to do anything, he asked him.

[nigel_k]

I don't know the legal answer to the general question as to whether a player is allowed to ask another player to leave the table. But I would tend to think you should call the director first.

On the actual hand, why didn't South want East to hear the question? I don't see how East hearing the question could provide him with unauthorised information that might affect the result on the hand. If it is just that he might be offended, then the question is not really offensive and anyway if you're going to say something that might offend someone, you shouldn't ask them to leave just so you can avoid saying it to their face.

However, if I was East I would leave if asked except if South was a known idiot then I would insist on him calling the director first.

[TimG]

jdonn, on Mar 22 2010, 12:52 PM, said:

East: I don't think I have to leave, I'm entitled to hear any question you ask just like my partner is. Anyway if you want to call the director and see if he will ask me to leave then that is fine.

I don't think East is entitled to hear any question that is asked. If he was, when screens are in use the notes would be passed under the screen.

The "need to know in order to correct an incorrect explanation" is a red herring since the explanation would not be corrected until the completion of play and what the question was and whether the explanation was correct can be discussed (if needed) at the completion of play.

I don't think south was out of line in asking; I don't think east was out of line in suggesting a call for the director to clarify the rights of both sides.

I haven't given the hand much thought, but wonder why it is important that east not know south is curious about the possible psyche. Is there an effective defense is east places his partner with Jx in trumps?

[peachy]

I don't know what is right but as South, I would not ask anybody to leave. Call TD if there is a concern of some sort. After S didn't, East or West could have. It is certainly an irregularity to ask that somebody leave the table

[jdonn]

For clarification here are some more facts.

I got the story from east.
I don't actually know who NS were but I know all four players were experts.
Perhaps south thought he would get a more genuine answer to that particular question if east weren't around to hear it. Ok that's not really a fact, just my own speculation.
East didn't really have an opinion about whether he could be asked to leave, he just wanted the director called if south made this request because he didn't know the law and it was out of the ordinary.
East hadn't psyched on this particular hand, unless you consider Jxxx xx xxx KTxx a psych but certainly none of the players at the table would think so.

[aguahombre]

jdonn, on Mar 22 2010, 02:14 PM, said:

For clarification here are some more facts.

I got the story from east.
I don't actually know who NS were but I know all four players were experts.
Perhaps south thought he would get a more genuine answer to that particular question if east weren't around to hear it. Ok that's not really a fact, just my own speculation.
East didn't really have an opinion about whether he could be asked to leave, he just wanted the director called if south made this request because he didn't know the law and it was out of the ordinary.
East hadn't psyched on this particular hand, unless you consider Jxxx xx xxx KTxx a psych but certainly none of the players at the table would think so.

So, it seems that they all "got along". Whether perfectly kosher or not, they tried to keep it on a high plain. I hope declarer chose the coup, rather than the psyche.

[bluejak]

TimG, on Mar 22 2010, 08:48 PM, said:

I don't think East is entitled to hear any question that is asked.  If he was, when screens are in use the notes would be passed under the screen.

Rules are different with screens. So you cannot deduce what a rule without screens is from a rule with screens.



It is generally accepted that you can call the TD even when there is no irregularity.

There is nothing in the Law book suggesting you can ask another player to leave the table. Players do, of course, especially better players in sensitive areas fully understood by all the players.

I agree with East: if declarer wants to ask me to leave the table, let's have the TD.

[blackshoe]

jdonn, on Mar 22 2010, 12:52 PM, said:

Questions: Was anyone out of line? Should south not have asked, or should east have left? If anyone had called the director (either before or after the exchange) then what should he have done?

I don't think anyone was out of line.

There is nothing in law that would prohibit a player from making this request. There is nothing in law requiring a player to comply with it.

Had I been called as director, I would have suggested to South that if he has a question to which he needs an answer, he should ask it. If South says that he doesn't want East to hear the answer, I will ask South (away from the table) why not. Then I will most probably tell him again what I already told him - if he needs an answer, he should ask the question, and not worry about whether East hears it.

Edit: cross posted with David, so let me add that I don't disagree with anything he said.