[P_Marlowe]

bab9, on Mar 24 2010, 01:43 AM, said:

At the club where I learnt, almost nobody played splinters.

Would you use gerber after a suit fit has been established?  If not, what other control conventions would you use?

Is a double jump shift always a splinter?

I am currently playing Roman Key Card Gerber.  Is there a better version of Gerber?

Hi,

#1 Splinters are common, so your club would be an exception.
A generic definition / rule to decide, if a bid is a splinter bid is:
If bidding the suit one level lower would have been forcing,
than the bid is a splinter.
From this followes
a) every double jump shift is a splinter
b) Every jump shift in a game forcing auction is a splinter, e.g.
2C - 2S
4H
c) lots of peoble play 3H in the sequence
1D - 1S
3H
as a splinter, since bidding hearts one level lower, i.e. bidding
2H would be forcing, since 2H is a reverse
d) A jump shift after a 2/1 response to an opening is a splinter, e.g.
1H - 2C
3S
To a certain degree this is falls under c), but even if peoble would
play 3H in c) as natural and GF (old fashioned), they would play 3S
as a splinter.

#2 Using Gerber after a suit fit has been established eliminates the
option to make a 4C cue bid.
One main reasons for starting Cue bidding seq. are discovering,
if the partnership is missing a 2nd control in a suit, i.e. have opponents
the possibility to cask AK in a suit, Key card asks wont answer this
question.
The 2nd reason for starting Cue bidding seq. is to find out, if the honors
in both hands fit, this allowes to discover slams, where the combined
HCP strength is consderable lower than 32/33HCP, without cues you
can basically only find slams, which are on, because you have 23/33+.

#3 Are you sure, that other control conventions are more popular in your
club?

#4 If you play Roman Key Card Gerber, than this is certainly a sensible
version of Gerber.
Lots of peoble play Minorwood, i.e. 4 of a minor is KC ask, if a minor
suit has been found, i.e. at least with clubs as trumps, 4C would be
KC asking, i.e. in this situation you could call Minorwood - Gerber.
I prefer to play 4C as natural, but my guess is, that at least in my
Germany, this would be a minority view. (*)

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: (*) Hopefully you dont take this as a general endorsement of Gerber in
sitatuations, where a suit fit has been established.

[bab9]

helene_t, on Mar 24 2010, 05:24 AM, said:

Bab, how are you going to find out if you have slam if partner responds one keycard? If all partner has is an ace and, say, ♠Q, then 5♥ is too much. Then again, if all partner is missing is an ace then of course slam is good.

Better describe you own hand and let partner decide whether to explore slam or not. Then you can avoid the 5-level if partner has a minimum, even if he has an ace.

Ace (or keycard) asking can only be used to find out if you are missing two aces after you have found out that you have enough general values (or the hands fit well enough) for slam. It cannot be used to find out if you have enough values for slam.

If you want an asking bid to find out about general slam values, then ask for the number of controls (where an ace is 2 controls, a king one control).

helene_t, if partner responses with one key card their response to 4♣ will be 4♥ in the system I play (0314). Thus able to leave the contract in 4♥. Different story if 4NTs is used - I rarely use 4NT. I can see from the responses that I have been using 4♣ inappropriately.

I was taught that if you do not have all the aces don't even think about slam.

How do you ask your partner for their number of controls?

If you wait for enough general values, how do you find slams with less than 30HCP?

[bab9]

P_Marlowe, on Mar 24 2010, 05:53 AM, said:

bab9, on Mar 24 2010, 01:43 AM, said:

At the club where I learnt, almost nobody played splinters.

Would you use gerber after a suit fit has been established?  If not, what other control conventions would you use?

Is a double jump shift always a splinter?

I am currently playing Roman Key Card Gerber.  Is there a better version of Gerber?

Hi,

#1 Splinters are common, so your club would be an exception.

There are a large number of conventions not played at my ex-club. It may be because splinters are not taught at the bridge lessons.

Quote

    A generic definition / rule to decide, if a bid is a splinter bid is:
    If bidding the suit one level lower would have been forcing,
    than the bid is a splinter.
    From this followes
    a) every double jump shift is a splinter
    Every jump shift in a game forcing auction is a splinter, e.g.
        2C - 2S
        4H       
    c) lots of peoble play 3H in the sequence
        1D - 1S
        3H
        as a splinter, since bidding hearts one level lower, i.e. bidding
        2H would be forcing, since 2H is a reverse
    d) A jump shift after a 2/1 response to an opening is a splinter, e.g.
        1H - 2C
        3S 
        To a certain degree this is falls under c), but even if peoble would
        play 3H in c) as natural and GF (old fashioned), they would play 3S
        as a splinter.

Thanks. It seems I had a slight misunderstanding on how to show splinters. When you show a splinter, is it GF?

Quote

#2 Using Gerber after a suit fit has been established eliminates the
    option to make a 4C cue bid.
    One main reasons for starting Cue bidding seq. are discovering,
    if the partnership is missing a 2nd control in a suit, i.e. have opponents
    the possibility to cask AK in a suit, Key card asks wont answer this
    question.

I have only seen this cue bidding sequence used once at either club I've played (both in Queensland Australia) - my partner at the time was highly confused.

One question, I was lead to believe the purpose of the slam conventions was not only to determine the necessary controls, but to also determine if it is better to play in NTs. If when showing controls via the cue bids you show a void as a first and second round control, how do you ensure that partner does not put the contract into NT if they are missing the ace and king?

Quote

    The 2nd reason for starting Cue bidding seq. is to find out, if the honors
    in both hands fit, this allowes to discover slams, where the combined
    HCP strength is consderable lower than 32/33HCP, without cues you
    can basically only find slams, which are on, because you have 23/33+.

Can you give some guidence as to what you require to have a 23HCP slam?

Quote

#3 Are you sure, that other control conventions are more popular in your
    club?

Most players at the club used a step response to show aces following . A lot of players did not worry about slam unless they had 35+ HCP. And then a lot were flukes (being pushed into slam).

Quote

#4 If you play Roman Key Card Gerber, than this is certainly a sensible
    version of Gerber.
    Lots of peoble play Minorwood, i.e. 4 of a minor is KC ask, if a minor
    suit has been found, i.e. at least with clubs as trumps, 4C would be
    KC asking, i.e. in this situation you could call Minorwood - Gerber.
    I prefer to play 4C as natural, but my guess is, that at least in my
    Germany, this would be a minority view. (*)   

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: (*) Hopefully you dont take this as a general endorsement of Gerber in
      sitatuations, where a suit fit has been established.

So when a suit fit has been found, are you meant to use Blackwood?

[manudude03]

I'm not going to go into great length about requirements for slam. Gerber and Blackwood are slam prevention conventions (to stay out of the bad slams) rather than slam investigaion (to find the good slams). As others have stated, this means that these should only be used if you have very good reason to believe 12 tricks are there. Without mentioning the alternatives, there are very few hands that would want to gerber after a 1/1 response, and even then you shouldn't be asking without 5 level safety since the only hands you'd want to ask will be when you have 2 clear-cut losers and nothing else and in nearly all of those you would be opening 2♣ anyway. The typical 1x-1y-(ace ask) hand it something like KQJx A AKQJxxx x.

To put it another way, suppose you have KQJx AJx AQJTx x the auction:
1D-1S
4C-4H

where 4C was gerber. What do you know about partner's hand? He has 1 ace and at least 6 points, you don't know about his shape and you don't know if he has 6 points or 16. Sign off with 1 missing? Tough, partner has Axxxx KQx Kx xxx and you've just missed a laydown slam. Bid slam? Partner comes up with xxxx Qxx xxx KQx. Ask for kings? You have a similar dilemma if partner shows 2 kings.

Let's look at the other possibility with this hand and let 4C be a splinter. Partner can then cuebid 4♦ over 4♣ and now you know the diamonds are solid and partner doesn't have a bare 6 count. Now you can safely ask for aces via 4NT and reach slam when it's right. You won't necessarily make them all, but that attitude (must not go down with lots of points) does not go far in terms of winning bridge.

If you do some searching in the forums, there are dozens of Assign the Blame hands where one hand decided not to show a key feature which would have provided the key needed for slam. It doesn't even take anything that extraordinary to have a 23 HCP slam, an example below.

AKxxx x Axx KJxx
Qxxxx xxxx x AQx

Note that if spades are 2-1, even the ♣J is wasted.

Generally speaking, slam depends on 4 things:
General values
Degree of trump fit
Fitting honours
Fitting shape

The idea of needing 33 HCP for slams is ridiculous* if you think about it for a minute. How many HCP do you have if you have a 13 card suit? I wish the defence luck on beating grand in that suit.

*It is a good idea to aim for 33 HCP for 6NT, but again, it can be made with less.

As a final note, the way to improve your slam bidding is to go down in a few. You will learn why a lighter slam wasn't good or why it was great.

[P_Marlowe]

bab9, on Mar 24 2010, 09:54 PM, said:

Quote

     The 2nd reason for starting Cue bidding seq. is to find out, if the honors
     in both hands fit, this allowes to discover slams, where the combined
     HCP strength is consderable lower than 32/33HCP, without cues you
     can basically only find slams, which are on, because you have 23/33+.

Can you give some guidence as to what you require to have a 23HCP slam?

Sry - typing error it should have been 32/33+ instead of 23/33+,
cues allow you to find slam, where the combined HCP strength is
lower, but are on, because the hands mesh well, using only KC will
help you with slams which have 32/33+.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

bab9, on Mar 24 2010, 09:54 PM, said:

Quote

#4 If you play Roman Key Card Gerber, than this is certainly a sensible
     version of Gerber.
     Lots of peoble play Minorwood, i.e. 4 of a minor is KC ask, if a minor
     suit has been found, i.e. at least with clubs as trumps, 4C would be
     KC asking, i.e. in this situation you could call Minorwood - Gerber.
     I prefer to play 4C as natural, but my guess is, that at least in my
     Germany, this would be a minority view. (*)    

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: (*) Hopefully you dont take this as a general endorsement of Gerber in
      sitatuations, where a suit fit has been established.

So when a suit fit has been found, are you meant to use Blackwood?

Personally I only use 4NT as KC ask, if a suit fit has been
established, that works reasonably well, but as I said, if
you have discovered a minor suit fit, this is a minor position,
at least in Germany - it basically forces you to have cue
bidding auctions, which will train your partnership getting
used to cue bidding.

I would also not bother with other KC conventions, like
Kickback, Voidwood and so on, using 4NT only is sufficient.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[chasetb]

manudude03, on Mar 24 2010, 11:46 PM, said:

If you do some searching in the forums, there are dozens of Assign the Blame hands where one hand decided not to show a key feature which would have provided the key needed for slam. It doesn't even take anything that extraordinary to have a 23 HCP slam, an example below.

AKxxx x Axx KJxx
Qxxxx xxxx x AQx

Note that if spades are 2-1, even the ♣J is wasted.

Generally speaking, slam depends on 4 things:
General values
Degree of trump fit
Fitting honours
Fitting shape

The idea of needing 33 HCP for slams is ridiculous* if you think about it for a minute. How many HCP do you have if you have a 13 card suit? I wish the defence luck on beating grand in that suit.

*It is a good idea to aim for 33 HCP for 6NT, but again, it can be made with less.

I only quoted the really important parts. People do NOT say you need 33 HCP for a slam in a suit, they say 33 points (HCP + distribution). However, the rest of the quote is completely accurate. In your example hand, I evaluate it to 31 points (4 points each for the 2 singletons), and because of the concentration of honors, I give an extra point for each suit to make it 33. And 6♠ is laydown.

[jdonn]

chasetb, on Mar 25 2010, 01:42 AM, said:

manudude03, on Mar 24 2010, 11:46 PM, said:

If you do some searching in the forums, there are dozens of Assign the Blame hands where one hand decided not to show a key feature which would have provided the key needed for slam. It doesn't even take anything that extraordinary to have a 23 HCP slam, an example below.

AKxxx x Axx KJxx
Qxxxx xxxx x AQx

Note that if spades are 2-1, even the ♣J is wasted.

Generally speaking, slam depends on 4 things:
General values
Degree of trump fit
Fitting honours
Fitting shape

The idea of needing 33 HCP for slams is ridiculous* if you think about it for a minute. How many HCP do you have if you have a 13 card suit? I wish the defence luck on beating grand in that suit.

*It is a good idea to aim for 33 HCP for 6NT, but again, it can be made with less.

I only quoted the really important parts. People do NOT say you need 33 HCP for a slam in a suit, they say 33 points (HCP + distribution). However, the rest of the quote is completely accurate. In your example hand, I evaluate it to 31 points (4 points each for the 2 singletons), and because of the concentration of honors, I give an extra point for each suit to make it 33. And 6♠ is laydown.

And if it were

AKxxx x Axx KJxx
Qxxxx AQx xxxx x

It's still 33 points for the same reasons?

AKxxx x Axx KQJx
QJxxx AQx Qxxx x

So that's 38?

[helene_t]

bab9, on Mar 25 2010, 03:32 AM, said:

I was taught that if you do not have all the aces don't even think about slam.

This is very wrong. There are plenty of good slams to be bid with one missing ace. Here, partner has just made a simple response at the 1-level. He could have a very good hand. If you sign off with one missing ace you could play 4♥ with 36 combined points!

The whole purpose of keycard asking is to find out if you are missing two keycards. With one missing keycard you always bid slam, since you decided to ask for keycards because you knew that slam would be good if you don't miss two keycards. If that were not the case then your hand was not suitable for keycard asking.

Quote

If you wait for enough general values, how do you find slams with less than 30HCP?

You don't.

You have to find out if the hands fit well. Show your distribution as well as your general strength. Partner will recognize when the hands fit well - if you have a double fit, or if he has xxx opposite your singleton.

If the hands do not fit well, then you need some 32/33 points.

Remember, as opener you are one step ahead of partner in terms of describing your hand. That means that partner is generally in a better position to make slam decisions than you are.

So you should rarely ask questions as opener. Describe your hand. Partner will know if the hands fit well enough and/or have enough combined values for slam. If so, he may ask for keycards.

Here, the question is whether a 4♥ rebid (showing a (semi)-balanced 19-count with four hearts) or a 3♠ rebid (showing a singleton spade and four hearts and enough strength for 4♥), makes it easier for partner to assess whether slam is good.

The exception is when partner makes a descriptive bid, such as a limit bid or a jump shift. Then you can sometimes take over the captaincy, ask for keycards (if necessary), and decide whether to bid slam or not.

[bab9]

helene_t, on Mar 25 2010, 05:38 AM, said:

bab9, on Mar 25 2010, 03:32 AM, said:

I was taught that if you do not have all the aces don't even think about slam.

This is very wrong. There are plenty of good slams to be bid with one missing ace. Here, partner has just made a simple response at the 1-level. He could have a very good hand. If you sign off with one missing ace you could play 4♥ with 36 combined points!

The whole purpose of keycard asking is to find out if you are missing two keycards. With one missing keycard you always bid slam, since you decided to ask for keycards because you knew that slam would be good if you don't miss two keycards. If that were not the case then your hand was not suitable for keycard asking.

I except that there are slams available when you are missing 1 ace.

I must be missing something. If you use 4NT to ask for key cards, and find you are missing 1 key card. If you then ask for kings you are already at the 6 level and you might find that you are missing the AK in one suit. Or is this a percentage play? Do you only ask for kings if you are considering playing in NT?

How do you best handle key card asking if you have a void? In cue bidding I take it you show first and second round controls in that suit (or do you require extra trump length to do so)?

[manudude03]

bab9, on Mar 26 2010, 02:44 AM, said:

I must be missing something.  If you use 4NT to ask for key cards, and find you are missing 1 key card.  If you then ask for kings you are already at the 6 level and you might find that you are missing the AK in one suit.  Or is this a percentage play?  Do you only ask for kings if you are considering playing in NT?

How do you best handle key card asking if you have a void?  In cue bidding I take it you show first and second round controls in that suit (or do you require extra trump length to do so)?

When you find you are missing an ace after doing blackwood, you don't ask for kings. As for the issue of whether you could be missing AK, cuebidding 1st/2nd round controls will tell you if this is the case. If partner bypasses it, he doesn't have it. Easy game. Unless specifically agreed otherwise, asking for kings shows interest in playing in grand (and confirms all aces).

With regards to a void. You can either just keep cuebidding even if it takes you past 4NT, play a convention called Exclusion Keycard Blackwood, or if you know for certain whether partner has the ace or not in your void, you can use 4NT anyway and know what he will be showing.

p.s the problem with distribution points is that no-one can give a good value for it, sometimes singletons are bad, others they are great.

[bab9]

manudude03, on Mar 25 2010, 10:19 PM, said:

bab9, on Mar 26 2010, 02:44 AM, said:

I must be missing something.  If you use 4NT to ask for key cards, and find you are missing 1 key card.  If you then ask for kings you are already at the 6 level and you might find that you are missing the AK in one suit.  Or is this a percentage play?  Do you only ask for kings if you are considering playing in NT?

How do you best handle key card asking if you have a void?  In cue bidding I take it you show first and second round controls in that suit (or do you require extra trump length to do so)?

When you find you are missing an ace after doing blackwood, you don't ask for kings.

helene_t indicated that if you are missing only 1 key card you should always bid slam. Are you suggesting that you jump straight to slam without king asking? Or that by the time you key card ask, you should already have a good idea of the controls in partners hand?

Quote

As for the issue of whether you could be missing AK, cuebidding 1st/2nd round controls will tell you if this is the case. If partner bypasses it, he doesn't have it. Easy game. Unless specifically agreed otherwise, asking for kings shows interest in playing in grand (and confirms all aces).

Does cue bidding of this nature always start at the 4 level? How do you identify a cue bid from a natural bid if there has been bidding at the 3 level?

Quote

p.s the problem with distribution points is that no-one can give a good value for it, sometimes singletons are bad, others they are great.

Not heard of singletons being bad before. The only thing I can think of is if you have a king as the singleton. Can you elaborate?

[helene_t]

bab9, on Mar 26 2010, 07:53 AM, said:

helene_t indicated that if you are missing only 1 key card you should always bid slam.  Are you suggesting that you jump straight to slam without king asking?  Or that by the time you key card ask, you should already have a good idea of the controls in partners hand?

Yes. You only ask for keycards if the number of key cards is the only thing you need to know. That is because you ask with 4NT so after you get the answer there is no room for further exploration below the 5-level of the trump suit. So if you need to know more than whether you are missing two keycards, asking for keycards is not the right thing to do.

In the hand of this thread, a 3♠ splinter may allow us to bid a good slam missing ♠K and a keycard, while avoiding a bad slam missing a minor suit king and a keycard. This is because 3♠ tells partner that minor suit honours are valuable while spade honours are less valuable.

I suppose if you ask for keycards with 4♣ you could cuebid after having heard the answer. But I doubt you will find any text books that describe such an approach. Rather, Gerber is a convention that allows you to ask for aces (or keycards?) in a situation where you don't need to do cuebidding and 4NT would be quantitative. For example directly after partner's 1NT opening.

Quote

Does cue bidding of this nature always start at the 4 level?  How do you identify a cue bid from a natural bid if there has been bidding at the 3 level?

Cuebidding can start with 3♠ after partner has set trumps with a 3♥ bid. Otherwise, it generally starts at the 4-level.

[mikeh]

bab9, on Mar 25 2010, 09:44 PM, said:

I must be missing something.  If you use 4NT to ask for key cards, and find you are missing 1 key card.  If you then ask for kings you are already at the 6 level and you might find that you are missing the AK in one suit.  Or is this a percentage play?  Do you only ask for kings if you are considering playing in NT?

The answer to this concern about being off an AK is simple: never, ever ask for Aces unless you know that the partnership has at least 2nd round control of every side suit.

This can be done by looking at your hand and seeing that you cown these controls or by cue-bidding before (or instead of) asking for keycards.

If you follow expert bridge, you will only rarely see exceptions to this approach and they will be on auctions where the partnership has announced so much power (or the opps bidding leads to a strong inference that partner is short in their suit) that the chances of being off AK are very, very small.

It seems that you play in a club with no strong players so cannot expect to learn how to bid properly through playing there.This forum is an excellent resource, but I would suggest joining the BIL sextion on BBO and/or buying some books on modern bidding..they are easily available over the internet.

Of course, if you want to bid well at your club, you need to find at least one partner also interested in learning.

Good luck.

[Jlall]

jdonn, on Mar 23 2010, 10:09 AM, said:

I would most certainly not miss slam after a splinter with KQx Qxxxx Axx xx.

What, really? 4D-4H-p seems very normal if you start with a splinter.

[jdonn]

Jlall, on Mar 26 2010, 05:10 PM, said:

jdonn, on Mar 23 2010, 10:09 AM, said:

I would most certainly not miss slam after a splinter with KQx Qxxxx Axx xx.

What, really? 4D-4H-p seems very normal if you start with a splinter.

That seems like pretty bad evaluation. Responder can almost even bid keycard after the splinter. Write down a bunch of hands for opener. The ones missing 1 keycard are usually good slams or at worst on a club/heart finesse, and the ones missing 2 keycards are almost always safe at 5. The fifth heart and doubleton club are big and although the spades are opposite shortness it's still better than not having them.

[Jlall]

x AJxx KQx AQJxx is not safe at the 5 level.

x AKxx KQx AJxxx will get you to a 0 % slam off 1 keycard.

etc etc. Driving seems pretty terrible by responder. If you are off the spade ace you're probably gonna need solid clubs + solid trumps, or solid trumps + very good in both minors. With those partner can bid keycard himself over a cuebid.

Making 2 moves is possible but I don't know if it's necessary, partner will know AK of trumps and AKQxx+ of clubs is the nuts opposite a diamond cuebid, and also that AK of hearts, DK, CAK is the nuts. I cannot imagine him signing off with x AKxx Kxx AKxxx or better, or with x AKxx xxx AKQJx or better.

Our hand is not that much different in value for slam purposes than xxx Qxxxx Axx xx which is also obviously worth a cuebid, but not really worth a move past that imo.

[jdonn]

Our hand is almost the same as xxx Qxxxx Axx xx only if you always give opener KQx of diamonds. If he has almost any other diamond holding our spades take on more value and his value is more useful in clubs or hearts. Yes x AKxx KQx AJxxx is bad but x AKxx xxx AKJxx is a decent slam (great on 2-2 hearts, often makes on 3-1 hearts, and they might even lead a spade) so I think we are definitely worth another try.

I say bid 5♥ over 4♥ and partner can even tell the difference. We can't have ace of spades or second round control in clubs since we didn't cuebid them so we must have what he is missing in trumps, the diamond ace, and either extra trump length or spade values (probably both) to be worth this bid. He will be able to tell that x AKxx KQx AJxxx doesn't make slam.

[bab9]

mikeh, on Mar 26 2010, 09:14 AM, said:

bab9, on Mar 25 2010, 09:44 PM, said:

I must be missing something.  If you use 4NT to ask for key cards, and find you are missing 1 key card.  If you then ask for kings you are already at the 6 level and you might find that you are missing the AK in one suit.  Or is this a percentage play?  Do you only ask for kings if you are considering playing in NT?

The answer to this concern about being off an AK is simple: never, ever ask for Aces unless you know that the partnership has at least 2nd round control of every side suit.

This can be done by looking at your hand and seeing that you cown these controls or by cue-bidding before (or instead of) asking for keycards.

I was under the impression that cue bidding always showed first round controls first. If the suit is then rebid it would show second round controls. Thus you will not know if you had 2nd round controls in every side suit before asking for first round controls. As the issue may be my understanding of cue bidding, can you recommend any books on the subject?

Quote

It seems that you play in a club with no strong players so cannot expect to learn how to bid properly through playing there.This forum is an excellent resource, but

Fair comment. One thing I have noticed at the club is the bidding inconsistency with some players (even those with higher rankings than myself). Do you have any guidence as to how not to pick up bad habits as a result of playing against inconsistent bidders?

Quote

I would suggest joining the BIL sextion on BBO and/or buying some books on modern bidding..they are easily available over the internet.

Which authors would you recommend?

Quote

Of course, if you want to bid well at your club, you need to find at least one partner also interested in learning.

Good luck.

My latest partner has shown some interest in learning, having only just introduced mutli-2's into our system.

[aguahombre]

Bab: IMO, bringing a learner along is hampered by adding new gadgets. At the stage you seem to be describing, I would recommend hammering in the follow-ups and the proper times to use existing methods.

Wouldn't even consider adding something new unless it fills a gaping hole in existing methods, and multi --while certainly viable ---doesn't do that. It just adds a new load to other bids.