[EricK]

Scoring: MP

---

S N
1NT 2♣
2♦ 2NT
P

1NT was 12-14
2♣ was stayman, but the only way to invite in NT

The lead was a small (4th highest) ♠. South played the King on the first round hoping to make the first 9 tricks. Instead East took the Ace, and the defense took the first eleven!

Did NS do anything wrong?

Eric

[the hog]

I would definitely pass 1N with the Nth hand. Odds of partner having 14 are low, your hand is nothing special. Playing the weak NT our philosophy is "If you are not good enought to open 1NT, you are not good enough to invite game.

[inquiry]

This is just unlucky of sorts. Kaplain Shienwold book taught me that balanced 12 opposite balanced 12 make game more often than not. I would have bid 3NT immediately over 1NT, so i marked other. Now if the Spade ace had been on side.......

Ben

[whereagles]

I think you couldn't have done better with the tools you had available. Even if you pass 1NT, they still take the first 11 tricks, so...

[Cascade]

I wouldn't invite game with only 11 hcp.

In a way this is a bad hand for weak NT. One of the big disadvantages of Weak No Trump is that it can make it hard to find your fit on part-score hands.

On the other hand this hand could be a great success due to the pre-emptive value of the 1NT. If East or West have a singleton in a minor then they might have reasonable play for 4♥. At any rate they will make 3♥.

[Free]

I also wouldn't invite with the north hand. But that's still -5 on probably a similar lead, while people not playing weak NT will have a ♥ contract to defend. Perhaps they'll bid their ♥s if you pass however... Why didn't they bid anyway? With 9 ♥'s together they don't find it?

[whereagles]

1NT has too much preemptive POWA

[1eyedjack]

With the Spade Ace sitting over the King it requires both the minors to break 3-2 in order to beat 4H. Once the King loses there is about 54% chance of game on their way.

If both minors break 3-2 and the Spade Ace is over the King then you are unlucky.

Not that I would expect many players to be bidding 4H even if it makes, so you still stand to lose.

Had the Spade Ace been under the King, and both minors broke 3-2, then the oppos can make just 2H, but you look to slide just one or two off in 2NT which should not be bad against par. A minor suit shortage in either opponents hand together with the Ace under the King will only improve your score, as oppos will be making 3H without it affecting the number of your undertricks.

So, still unlucky.

[Fluffy]

So some of you want to pass 1NT opening, and Ben wants to raise to 3 , whereagles, me, and maybe monocled-1 think to invite, how can we be so diverse with a suposed to be standard thing?, its just a balanced hand opposite 1 another!.


I don´t play 12-14 NT, but I play 1x-1y-1NT as 12-14, my judgement is to pass with 10, invite with 11 and bid game with 12.

I agree with the theory Ben has exposed, 12-12 makes more tricks than 20-4 for sure. I also heard an interesting theory about playing 3NT: you only neeed 23 combined HCP to make 3NT when you are stopping enemy´s suit with the J.

[helene_t]

Off-topic: If you use the 2NT response for something artificial, I don't think you should invite for 3NT at all without a 4-card major. Just bid 3NT if it has >50% chance (vuln at IMPS less, of course), otherwise pass.
1) You don't want to play 2NT.
2) If the split is bad, the oponents will know when to double if you reach 3NT via an invite.
3) The auction
1NT-2♣*
2♥-2♠*
3NT-pass
tells everything about opener's hand and give the oponents two oportunities for lead-directing doubles.
4) You can probably invent a more usefull meaning for the 2♠-bid in the above auction.

[hrothgar]

There is a school of thought that believes that invitational sequences over NT openings are wildly suboptimal. More generally, trying to designed sequences that allow you to stop in 2NT is questionable.

If you hold an invitational hand, you should either

(a) Pass
(B) Bid 3NT

This might help explain why Ben and Ron have such radically different interpretations regarding the "best" bid with the hand in question. The hand is borderline (I'd pass), however, if you are going to bid, 3NT is probably better than and invitational sequence. Look what happened on the hand in question: If you had been able to make 2N, you'd also be able to make 3N.

Its worth noting that most well designed NT structures have mechanisms to discover "flaws" like xx in hearts opposite xx or xxx.

For example, the Scanian NT structure uses a 2NT response to ask whether opener has a weak doubleton. This bid is used with either

(a) Game invitational hands with a long minor
(B) Game forcing hands that are worried about 5 quick losers in a suit

Alternatively, its always possible to play "anti-lemming"

1N - 3H = 2 Hearts and 3 Spades, forcing to 3N or 4m
1N - 3S = 2 Spades and 3 Hearts, forcing to 3N or 4m

[the hog]

Richard has a point. 2N is the world's worst contract.
This is why so many now play sequences such as
1D 2C
2D 2N
and
1H 1S
2C 2N

as gf

Who wants to contract for exactly 8 tricks?

[luke warm]

the way i play, i'd open south 1nt every day of the weak, nv vs. v... with the north hand, it's *barely* in invite range (11-13), so i really can't fault a partner for using judgment on that... given the lead, east has 2 spades... i'd duck without hesitation on the first trick.. i voted that as the culprit

it's true that 2nt isn't the world's most elegant contract, but 3nt surely had a shot (from north's view)...

btw, i play invitational puppet as invite, with 2NT being bid after the (almost) forced 2D rebid by opener... opener can pass (as here) or ask for majors (3C) or bid 3nt or even xfer with a 5 card major that was too weak to bid over 2C

as for richard's statement about a system's ability to show 'flaws', that's true for me but not with an invitational hand.. only with game force

[luke warm]

EricK, on Jul 22 2004, 09:43 AM, said:

Dealer: South Vul: E/W Scoring: MP

♠ AK9 ♥ 85 ♦ KJT5 ♣ A872 ♠ 864 ♥ J6 ♦ AQ73 ♣ KQT4

i changed the north hand to make it a game force to show how the 'flaw search' thingy would go

1nt : 2d
3d : 3h - 3d shows both minors, 3h asking
3nt : 4c - 3nt shows 3244, 4c asks controls
4d : 4h - 4d shows 2 or 3, 4h spiral scan
5c - 5c shows top diamond honor, top club honor, no top spade honor

responder was safe on the spiral scan because he knew opener didn't have any spade honors that could be shown on first round.. he also knows which minor honors (A and K anyway) opener holds, so he can pass or bid 5d, whichever he wants..

the thing to notice is, the distribution ask showed a doubleton heart in opener's hand... given the same holding in responder's, the minor game was bid instead of signing off in 3nt

[1eyedjack]

Not sure of the point you are trying to make Luke. I would prefer to take my chances in 3NT on the possibility (however unlikely) of a non-Heart lead, rather than play in a 5C contract that cannot make on any lead.

[1eyedjack]

luke warm, on Jul 22 2004, 06:02 PM, said:

given the lead, east has 2 spades... i'd duck without hesitation on the first trick.. i voted that as the culprit

Rising with the King at trick 1 is correct. At least you make the contract (with an overtrick) if opening leader has underled the Ace. By playing low from dummy you guarantee losing the first Spade trick and then as many Hearts as they can cash (plus the later Spade Ace) which will certainly be enough to beat 2N.

If the Spade Ace is over the King you appear to gain nothing from ducking (barring the occasional extreme blockage) as opening leader will have Heart entries to spare to repeat the Spade lead through the King.

[luke warm]

yeah i had blinders on, of course they will switch to hearts... i was assuming east would rise with the ace and continue spades... not so

[luke warm]

1eyedjack, on Jul 23 2004, 03:12 AM, said:

Not sure of the point you are trying to make Luke.  I would prefer to take my chances in 3NT on the possibility (however unlikely) of a non-Heart lead, rather than play in a 5C contract that cannot make on any lead.

just showing how 2D finds distribution, that was the only point... and yeah, 5 minor is down this time, but north would be right to look and if he did, 5 minor would be the right contract (imo... i put a lot of faith in rosenkrantz and he's of the opinion that nt shouldn't be bid when both hands have doubletons, even if one has a stopper... usually, he says)...

[Cascade]

We play 1NT as 11-14 and our firm policy in response is pass with 11 balanced. I think this is a big winner.

I am also from the school of invite seldom accept often.

So with 12 hcp I will sometimes invite and sometimes just go to game.

[1eyedjack]

luke warm, on Jul 22 2004, 08:40 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Jul 23 2004, 03:12 AM, said:

Not sure of the point you are trying to make Luke.  I would prefer to take my chances in 3NT on the possibility (however unlikely) of a non-Heart lead, rather than play in a 5C contract that cannot make on any lead.

just showing how 2D finds distribution, that was the only point... and yeah, 5 minor is down this time, but north would be right to look and if he did, 5 minor would be the right contract (imo... i put a lot of faith in rosenkrantz and he's of the opinion that nt shouldn't be bid when both hands have doubletons, even if one has a stopper... usually, he says)...

I adopt a very simple philosophy: If neither side has a singleton or void I will never play in 5m in preference to 3N.

Sure, exceptional hands can be constructed, but I have yet to have one dealt to me (that I have noticed!). It is a rule that has stood me in good stead.