[slyq]

been wondering how to treat 1s in response to 1 heart decided showing 3cds with inv hands or 4+ with strong hands was best and recently noticed that meckstroth rodwell also use this approach does anyone know details of thier
methods (saw they put long weak spades into 1nt which makes a lot of sense)

[the hog]

slyq, on Mar 15 2010, 11:39 AM, said:

been wondering how to treat 1s in response to 1 heart decided showing 3cds with inv hands or 4+ with strong hands was best and recently noticed that meckstroth rodwell also use this approach does anyone know details of thier
methods (saw they put long weak spades into 1nt which makes a lot of sense)

Where did you read this? I think this is a very poor idea.

[straube]

I have a good idea what they used to do maybe 15 years ago. With that huge caveat...

1H-1N, 2L-2S showed 6 spades, weak hand
1H-2S showed 6 spades, constructive hand (8-10?)
1H-1S, 2L-3S-showed 6 spades, GI hand (12-13?)

hands that could give a simple heart raise, did so instead of introducing spades

hands that could GF and had only four spades made a 2/1

hands that could GF and had five spades bid 1S and then 2S over a 2L rebid (e.g. 1H-1S, 2C-2S was GF)

I'm not sure what their rules were with GI hands that had spades and a heart fit.

1H-1S could show 3 spades with less than GI with such patterns as 3-2-4-4 or 3-1-(54)...the idea
was that opener could never raise spades with only three spades, so a bid like 1S elicited the most descriptive rebid from opener. Contrast 1H-1N, 2C to 1H-1S, 2C when you have 3-1-5-4. Now you know you have a club fit.

[slyq]

they were apparently playing it in 2001 dont know if they still play it but it is a sound approach

[the hog]

slyq, on Mar 15 2010, 01:57 PM, said:

they were apparently playing it in 2001 dont know if they still play it but it is a sound approach

Why do you think it is a sound approach. With the Ms you should try and show your hand type as quickly as possible, not stuff around.

[slyq]

there may be a slight vunerabilty to 3 or 4 of a minor intervention after 1h 1s but this seems a minor concern really and there are other benifits than the simple advantages like making it difficult to compete in spades

[the hog]

slyq, on Mar 15 2010, 02:41 PM, said:

there may be a slight vunerabilty to 3 or 4 of a minor intervention after 1h 1s but this seems a minor concern really and there are other benifits than the simple advantages like making it difficult to compete in spades

eh. how is 1H 1S (2S) natural difficult?

[slyq]

re opening x here would be straight out penalties 3 of a minor nat 5cds non forcing 2nt both minors a x by opener becomes co-op penalty

[straube]

The_Hog, on Mar 15 2010, 02:18 AM, said:

slyq, on Mar 15 2010, 01:57 PM, said:

they were apparently playing it in 2001 dont know if they still play it but it is a sound approach

Why do you think it is a sound approach. With the Ms you should try and show your hand type as quickly as possible, not stuff around.

The way they bid spades clarifies what sort of hand they have when they rebid spades. Say the auction goes 1H-(P)-1N (3C) P P 3S. Opener knows now that responder is straining here with a weak hand with spades. Certainly responder might be shut out and not be able to bid spades (if he has a bad six-card suit for example), but on most deals opener won't have 4-cd support for him anyway and they'd be in the position of 1H-(P)-1S (3C) P P 3S in which this bid sounds invitational. The way they have it set up, this last sequence shows that responder either had a GF hand with 5 spades or a GI hand with 6 spades and thus they would treat this sequence as forcing.

So yes, they lose spades sometimes, but only when responder is weak (like 7 or less) and it's likely not their hand anyway. But they get spades into the picture faster than most with 1H-2S for a more frequent range of 8-10.

Their method also gives them a GF at the 2 level for 1H-1S, 2H-2S is GF. They can use this as a relay and I think they do. Opener can show a 6331 for example. Contrast this with 1H-1S, 2H-3m that many pairs use to force. Doesn't leave much room.

[slyq]

not sure if jumping with 8-10 and 5 spades would be the way to go due to missing 4-4 minor fits to often 2s strong gf
with sing suit spades (ot h supt) seems better over 2h 2nt would then be ogust / gf relay type inquiry since 2h would now show 6 ( 1h 1s 1nt = 5332 or 5h 4s) and 2s over 2h ongoing 8-11 jumps to 3s 11-12 6 decent spades (old super precision) and weak spade hands via 1nt

[straube]

slyq, on Mar 15 2010, 11:18 PM, said:

not sure if jumping with 8-10 and 5 spades would be the way to go due to missing 4-4 minor fits to often 2s strong gf
with sing suit spades (ot h supt) seems better over 2h 2nt would then be ogust / gf relay type inquiry since 2h would now show 6 ( 1h 1s 1nt = 5332 or 5h 4s) and 2s over 2h ongoing 8-11 jumps to 3s 11-12 6 decent spades (old super precision) and weak spade hands via 1nt

You've read things wrong.

They jump with 8-10 and 6 spades, not 5.

After 1H-1S, 2H-2S is GF showing 5 spades and relaying simultaneously.

1H-1S, 1N=5332 usually, and definitely not 5H/4S

1H-1S, 2S=5H/4S

[slyq]

yes i understand but was not sure in your outline what they did with 5s and 8-10 since 1h -1s -2d - 2s was a game force there seemed to be no bid for this hand

[slyq]

perhaps a direct 1h 3s was 11-12 6s and via 1s it was gf with 6s 13+ gf with 5s gf going through 4th suit and 2s rebid non forcing 5s

[straube]

slyq, on Mar 16 2010, 06:27 AM, said:

yes i understand but was not sure in your outline what they did with 5s and 8-10 since 1h -1s -2d - 2s was a game force there seemed to be no bid for this hand

They respond 1S and then pick the least of evils, even correcting to 2H with one heart. At this point in the auction, opener realizes that responder must have 4 or 5 spades (not 3 or else responder would pass 2D) and less than three hearts, so opener will correct to spades with 3-5-4-1. I don't know what opener's rebid after 1H-1S is with 2-5-4-2, but I would guess it is 1N just to avoid playing in a misfit.

My notes said that 1H-1S, 2L-3S was GI with 6 spades. 1H-3S was something else but I've forgotten the meaning. I don't think it was a spade splinter. Maybe an undisclosed splinter?

Good luck figuring the rest out

[lilboyman]

To see Meckwell's convention card for last world championship go to this link:

http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...oth-rodwell.pdf