[Apollo81]

In local sectional, matchpoint scoring, opponents (who are a regular partnership) have the following auction:

1♥-1♠
2♣*-2♠
2NT*-3NT

*alerted

I'm on lead, I ask what the alerts are, and responder says that 2♣ was either natural, 1633, or showed certain types of good spade raises, then says that 2NT shows 1633 with game interest. I ask if it could also be a good 1534 hand, and responder says no, opener would have bid clubs with such a hand.

Responder had KJxxxx Tx Ax xxx or some such, and opener was 1534.

How would you react to this? None of the above affected the table result.

[awm]

Normally I will have a talk with the director after this type of thing happens, and ask if he can speak to the opponents about it. It may be a good idea to file a recorder form.

Generally it's not a good idea to scold the opponents yourself (just leads to acrimony) and calling the director over when there's no actual damage probably isn't the right approach either.

[xcurt]

++awm.

It would help if you could post the actual hands. The question in my mind is whether 2NT was the best misdescription, or whether they bid 2NT on "punt" hands and land on their feet (ie not in hearts when it's wrong) because they can read their partner's table action.

[TimG]

Was 2NT a midbid, or was the explanation incorrect?

[xcurt]

TimG, on Mar 28 2010, 10:39 AM, said:

Was 2NT a midbid, or was the explanation incorrect?

i think this is part of the point of the op. the agreements of the pair in question are whatever they do in practice, regardless of what their notes say. if you play something that ostensibly defines the shspe of one hand tightly, and then make "exceptions" on numerous hands, you create disclosure issues.

which is why playermemos are the way to go.

[aguahombre]

Apollo81, on Mar 27 2010, 10:53 PM, said:

I ask if it could also be a good 1534 hand, and responder says no, opener would have bid clubs with such a hand.

Did responder actually say that? Did it make sense to you? Or did he say opener would have rebid his 4-card club suit rather than 2NT? Or...is there a "not" missing from the post?

[Phil]

Nothing to get your panties in a wad over. If I were friendly with the opps I might ask why a 1534 bid 2N.

You can speak to the director, but that is as far as it goes. Sort of like calling the police if your house gets egged.

[TimG]

aguahombre, on Mar 28 2010, 11:34 AM, said:

Apollo81, on Mar 27 2010, 10:53 PM, said:

I ask if it could also be a good 1534 hand, and responder says no, opener would have bid clubs with such a hand.

Did responder actually say that? Did it make sense to you? Or did he say opener would have rebid his 4-card club suit rather than 2NT? Or...is there a "not" missing from the post?

I found that part a bit confusing at first, too, but concluded that responder meant opener would have bid 3C instead of 2N with 1534.

I would just assume this pair was not quite on the same page rather than they were making things up on the fly as xcurt suggests. If they do this on "numerous" hands, there is an issue, but I wouldn't bother getting involved unless I had real reason to believe this was happening repeatedly.

If it was happening repeatedly, I agree with having a talk with a director or filing a player memo. But, I think a player memo is too much trouble if there isn't evidence to suggest repeated occurrences and there is an innocent explanation.

[xcurt]

TimG, on Mar 28 2010, 02:04 PM, said:

I would just assume this pair was not quite on the same page rather than they were making things up on the fly as xcurt suggests.  If they do this on "numerous" hands, there is an issue, but I wouldn't bother getting involved unless I had real reason to believe this was happening repeatedly.

The OP clearly stated this was a regular pair.

TimG, on Mar 28 2010, 02:04 PM, said:

If they do this on "numerous" hands, there is an issue, but I wouldn't bother getting involved unless I had real reason to believe this was happening repeatedly.

The purpose of the player memo system is that you don't need to do your own private sleuthing to see if this happening repeatedly.*


* Please don't think I'm advocating reporting everything to the friendly local authorities. I have filed a total of one player memo in my life -- for rampant abuse of the alert system by a pro, playing with another pro, in a KO where we crushed them so there was no appeal.

[gnasher]

I'd assume that opener doesn't know their system and responder doesn't know how to bid. Alternatively, responder doesn't know their system, opener doesn't know the rules, and responder doesn't know how to bid. Either of these is far more likely than whatever else it is that you're imagining

[ggwhiz]

Quote

The purpose of the player memo system is that you don't need to do your own private sleuthing to see if this happening repeatedly.*

Do you know where those player memo things go? You will find a lot of old sick Elephants there.

[TimG]

xcurt, on Mar 28 2010, 05:39 PM, said:

TimG, on Mar 28 2010, 02:04 PM, said:

I would just assume this pair was not quite on the same page rather than they were making things up on the fly as xcurt suggests.  If they do this on "numerous" hands, there is an issue, but I wouldn't bother getting involved unless I had real reason to believe this was happening repeatedly.

The OP clearly stated this was a regular pair.

TimG, on Mar 28 2010, 02:04 PM, said:

If they do this on "numerous" hands, there is an issue, but I wouldn't bother getting involved unless I had real reason to believe this was happening repeatedly.

The purpose of the player memo system is that you don't need to do your own private sleuthing to see if this happening repeatedly.*


* Please don't think I'm advocating reporting everything to the friendly local authorities. I have filed a total of one player memo in my life -- for rampant abuse of the alert system by a pro, playing with another pro, in a KO where we crushed them so there was no appeal.

I think regular pairs are often prone to these types of problems because they are the ones often tinkering with the subtleties. This is the sort of misunderstanding that arises when system is under development.

I agree with you to a certain extent about the recorder system. In this case, I would simply leave it to players that face these guys on a regular basis and thus would have a better understanding of whether this is habitual.