[straube]

Let's say I know partner has 4-5-1-3 by his last bid of 3D. I have the choice of asking for
controls or queen points at 3H or bidding 3N or using the end signal of 4D to place a suit contract.

What's the best way to organize RKC here if I just want to ask?

3S-RKC hearts
4C-RKC spades
4H-RKC clubs
4S-RKC diamonds

or should I organize them according to suit ranks so as to leave enough room to stop in 5m when I'm looking for a minor suit slam?

3S-RKC clubs
4C-RKC diamonds
4H-RKC hearts
4S-RKC spades

Also, at what point should RKC be unavailable? For instance, if partner's last bid is 4C showing a 7420 shape, then we've probably run out of room. What about if his last bid was 3N?

Side question, I assume that for DCB after RKC, that the order is...
5 key cards
trump queen
side kings (longest suit to shortest suit, ties go to higher ranking)
trump jack
side queens (longest suit to shortest suit, ties go to higher ranking)

Singletons not scanned? Doubletons?

[kenrexford]

I think you'd be better off stacking.

3NT as a soft relay to 3NT. By "soft," I mean that partner CAN opt to answer Blackwood to 3♠ is he has Aces and Spaces, or something like that. If and when he bids 3NT, 4♣/4♦/4♥ are three of your RKCB calls.

4♣ is the remaining RKCB call.

4♥ and 4♠, then, could be used for special purposes, like perhaps Exclusion RKCB excluding the suit that makes the most sense (maybe "natural" Exclusion, excluding clubs?).

If doing this, you save a lot of space off the rip. I personally would make a direct 4♣ RKCB for whatever suit 4♣ tends to flag (for me, hearts). After a 3♠ relay, 4♣ would then be RKCB for clubs (longer minor) and 4♦ RKCB for that suit that 4♦ usually flags (for me spades). 4♥ after the relay would be the troubling RKCB (the stiff).

The relay would also allow freak Exclusion RKCB options (like 4♠ or 4NT ask excluding that major and agreeing the other major, 5♣ and 5♦ excluding the flagged major and agreeing diamonds; something like that).

[straube]

kenrexford, on Mar 7 2010, 04:29 PM, said:

I think you'd be better off stacking.

3NT as a soft relay to 3NT. By "soft," I mean that partner CAN opt to answer Blackwood to 3♠ is he has Aces and Spaces, or something like that. If and when he bids 3NT, 4♣/4♦/4♥ are three of your RKCB calls.

4♣ is the remaining RKCB call.

4♥ and 4♠, then, could be used for special purposes, like perhaps Exclusion RKCB excluding the suit that makes the most sense (maybe "natural" Exclusion, excluding clubs?).

If doing this, you save a lot of space off the rip. I personally would make a direct 4♣ RKCB for whatever suit 4♣ tends to flag (for me, hearts). After a 3♠ relay, 4♣ would then be RKCB for clubs (longer minor) and 4♦ RKCB for that suit that 4♦ usually flags (for me spades). 4♥ after the relay would be the troubling RKCB (the stiff).

The relay would also allow freak Exclusion RKCB options (like 4♠ or 4NT ask excluding that major and agreeing the other major, 5♣ and 5♦ excluding the flagged major and agreeing diamonds; something like that).

I like it. I suppose then that in rare instances, 3N by opener can be RKC. For instance, pattern shown at 3C...

3D-QP/control ask
3H-puppets 3S
.....3S-no aces to spaces
..........3N-RKC asks second suit
..........4C-asks third suit
..........4D-asks fourth suit
3S-RKC asks first suit
3N-to play

[Free]

I've always played the 4 steps for RKC as follows:
- order suits from long to short
- in case suits have equal length, order is ♥>♠>♣>♦
This is theoretically ok and works just fine, haven't had many problems.

What you could do is if your RKC is below 3NT, use step 1 to show a minimum hand (here 3♠ RKC ♥ -> 3NT is minimum, 4♣+ is max and shows keycards)

[Siegmund]

Admittedly slightly off-topic... I'm quite surprised y'all would consider a system that uses four bids for RKC and none to start cuebids... at some point this feels like too much complexity for its own sake. Do you always ask for queen-points before showing specific controls?

[Free]

Siegmund, on Mar 8 2010, 10:38 AM, said:

Admittedly slightly off-topic... I'm quite surprised y'all would consider a system that uses four bids for RKC and none to start cuebids... at some point this feels like too much complexity for its own sake. Do you always ask for queen-points before showing specific controls?

RKC is only used if you need to know about keycards and very specific information in 1 (or maybe 2) suit(s). If you care about controls and holdings in all the suits, you'll start with queen-points.

An example use for RKC would be that you need to know if partner has ♠Q (and all keycards). You'll start with RKC and ask about the ♠ holding afterwards.

[straube]

Free, on Mar 8 2010, 04:57 AM, said:

Siegmund, on Mar 8 2010, 10:38 AM, said:

Admittedly slightly off-topic... I'm quite surprised y'all would consider a system that uses four bids for RKC and none to start cuebids... at some point this feels like too much complexity for its own sake. Do you always ask for queen-points before showing specific controls?

RKC is only used if you need to know about keycards and very specific information in 1 (or maybe 2) suit(s). If you care about controls and holdings in all the suits, you'll start with queen-points.

An example use for RKC would be that you need to know if partner has ♠Q (and all keycards). You'll start with RKC and ask about the ♠ holding afterwards.

How do you ask for the spade queen? Example auction? Do you ask for it specifically or do you just pick it up with DCB after the RKC response?

[akhare]

straube, on Mar 8 2010, 10:57 AM, said:

Free, on Mar 8 2010, 04:57 AM, said:

Siegmund, on Mar 8 2010, 10:38 AM, said:

Admittedly slightly off-topic... I'm quite surprised y'all would consider a system that uses four bids for RKC and none to start cuebids... at some point this feels like too much complexity for its own sake. Do you always ask for queen-points before showing specific controls?

RKC is only used if you need to know about keycards and very specific information in 1 (or maybe 2) suit(s). If you care about controls and holdings in all the suits, you'll start with queen-points.

An example use for RKC would be that you need to know if partner has ♠Q (and all keycards). You'll start with RKC and ask about the ♠ holding afterwards.

How do you ask for the spade queen? Example auction? Do you ask for it specifically or do you just pick it up with DCB after the RKC response?

Here are the gory details:

5. RELAYING AFTER SHAPE RESOLUTION
5.1 Auction termination rules
1. 3N by R is always to play. RR may continue past with 9+QPs by bidding
4♣=9, 4♦=10, etc (see 5.6 for continuations).
2. If shaped is resolved by 3N (inclusive), 4♦ by R is the canonical terminator
puppet. RR bids 4♥ after which opener or corrects. As before, RR can bid on
with 4♠ =9 QPs, etc.
3. If shape is resolved at 4♣+, first step is canonical terminator puppet and the
rest of the stuff is as below.

5.2 QP ask and Denial Cuebids (DCB)
If shape is resolved by 3N, the first step asks for (QPs).
1. Don’t include stiff kings or queens.
2. Base = 6 for positive, 3 for SP responses. While reverse relaying, the base is
9 QPs
3. If shape isn’t resolved at 4♣, the first step is the terminator puppet and
step+1 is DCB ask
4. When responding to an QP ask after an initial SP response, responder
should zooms into DCB holding exactly 5 QPs. For example, if the shape is
resolved at 3♥ (following say an initial 1N response showing 3-5 QPs) and
opener bids 3♠ asking for QPs, responder bids 3N with 3 QPs and 4♣ with
4 QPs. With 5 QPs and no control in the longest suit, responder bids , 4♦
or continues at 4♥+

After determining the number of QPs, R can initiate denial cue bidding.
1. Suits are scanned in order of length; equal length ties are broken in rank
order.
2. On 1st pass, stop with 0/AKQ. On 2nd pass, look for 2nd hons in 2+ card suits.
3. Ignore suits where you stopped. Stop w no 2nd hon. On 3rd pass, look at
jacks in all 2+ card suits.

5.3 RKC ask (1430):
If shape is resolved by 3N, steps 2-4 are RKC asks in RR’s suits (4♦ is always
the terminator puppet). If shape is resolved at 4♣+, the first step is the terminator puppet, step+1 = DCB and step+2…step+5=RKC. The ask priority in order of
length; equal length ties are broken using the following order: ♥ > ♠ > ♣ >♦.
The rationale behind this is to maximize the amount of bidding space available
before passing the safety level for a given hand.
After the number of key cards are shown:
1. A bid of the trump suit at any level is to play
2. If the trump queen hasn’t been shown, the first step asks for the trump queen.
RR bids the next step lacking the trump queen and zooms on to controls in
the longest remaining side suit (see below).
3. Steps 1, 2 and 3 ask for controls in responder’s side suits in order of
remaining length and rank order. The responses in steps are: A or KQ, Q or
AK, K or AQ, AKQ. Note: Bidding the trump suit denies any control
4. Step 4 by R is the Trump Asking Bid. The responses in steps are A or KJ, J or
AK, K or AJ, AKJ.
In summary, after the RKC ask:
Step 1 =TQ ask (if trump queen hasn’t been shown)
Step 2 = SAB in suit 1
Step 3 = SAB in suit 2
Step 4 = SAB in suit 3
Step 5 = SAB in TS
Note: There may be less than 5 steps. Steps are removed if the TQ is known or if
RR has a void.
Responses to Queen ask:
With TQ, bid step.
Responses to SAB ask:
Step 1 = A/KQ
Step 2 = Q/AK
Step 3 = K/AQ
Step 4 = AKQ
Responses to TS SAB:
Step 1 = J /AK
Step 2 = K/AJ
Step 3 = A/KJ
Step 4 = AKJ
Given space, R can ask any or all the questions. But once you skip a question you
cannot go back. Any bid beyond the TS SAB is to play.
Example 1:
RR R
3♥ (6331) 4♣- RKC on ♠
4♦ (1/4) 4♥- Q ask
4NT (♠Q) 5♦– SAB in ♦
5♥ (♦A/KQ) 5♠ is TP
5N is SAB in ♣
6♣ is TS SAB
6♦ is TP

Example 2:
RR R
3♦ (36♥22) 4♣- KC on ♥
4♦ (1/4) 4♥ is TP
4♠ is TQ ask
4N is ♠ SAB
5♣ is ♣ SAB (co-incidence)
5♦ is ♦ SAB
5♥ is NF (weird)
5♠ is TS SAB
5N up is TP

Let’s say R chose 5♦ and heard 5N (♣Q/AK) - now 6♣ is TS SAB and 6 up is to play.
5.6 MOVING AFTER A SIGN OFF
If RR bids on over 3N or after 4}:
Step 1: DCBs
Step 2: Aces (0-1-2-3)
Rest: Sign off
Over a suit sign off, bids = cues. 4N = KB.

[kenrexford]

Siegmund, on Mar 8 2010, 04:38 AM, said:

Admittedly slightly off-topic... I'm quite surprised y'all would consider a system that uses four bids for RKC and none to start cuebids... at some point this feels like too much complexity for its own sake. Do you always ask for queen-points before showing specific controls?

I am a firm believer in skipping all cuebidding options and going straight to RKCB.

That's why I love patterning out relay structures.

Please play them more.

[slyq]

what works for me over 3d is to use 3s as stoper ask in resp 3-cd suit (axx not a stop) i would normally break relay to 2nt once two suits are shown to show a semi solid suit (in one of the other two suits) so i dont need one of the rkcb (best is p shtg ) any more with these sorts of hands this allows p to place contract in and right side 3nt ( 4c = min no stop 4d+ max no stop )or realise that p may have wasted values oppissite a singelton the exact rules depend on strength of responder or relayer luck

[Free]

straube, on Mar 8 2010, 04:57 PM, said:

Free, on Mar 8 2010, 04:57 AM, said:

Siegmund, on Mar 8 2010, 10:38 AM, said:

Admittedly slightly off-topic... I'm quite surprised y'all would consider a system that uses four bids for RKC and none to start cuebids... at some point this feels like too much complexity for its own sake. Do you always ask for queen-points before showing specific controls?

RKC is only used if you need to know about keycards and very specific information in 1 (or maybe 2) suit(s). If you care about controls and holdings in all the suits, you'll start with queen-points.

An example use for RKC would be that you need to know if partner has ♠Q (and all keycards). You'll start with RKC and ask about the ♠ holding afterwards.

How do you ask for the spade queen? Example auction? Do you ask for it specifically or do you just pick it up with DCB after the RKC response?

What Akhare said, although responses after a SAB can be different. I for example use:
trump suit is nothing or AKQ
step 1 (not trumps) = Q / AK
step 1 (not trumps) = K / AQ
step 1 (not trumps) = A / KQ

Example: suppose 3♦ shows 4=5=1=3 exactly. Now 3♠ would be RKC ♥ (use step 1 to show min):
... - 3♦
3♠ - 4♣ (RKC ♥ ; max and 1/4)
4♦ - 4NT (SAB ♠ ; 4♥ would be 0/3 tophonours so 4♠ is step 1, 4NT=K/AQ)
...

If you hold the ♠K, you know partner has A+Q
If you hold the ♠A, you know partner only has ♠K
Only if you don't hold any tophonours you can't determine 100% what partner has. Still, if you have all the keycards, then you know.

[straube]

Free, do you find it more efficient to use these SABs as opposed to just going into DCB? On the one hand, DCB seems like it would focus on the cards I want in the right order...side kings before trump jack before side queens. OTOH, SABs let opener ask only about the suits that matter...for instance, if opener has AKQ in a suit, he doesn't need to ask about that suit.
Also, if SABs are the way to go, how does one as about the trump jack or ten?

[rbforster]

RKC/SABs are better than DCBs for certain types of hands - basically those with a few specific losers that opener needs covered. Alternatively, DCBs are much better for general strength type inquiries, as well as making decisions about 6N vs 6X, etc. A typical hand that would want to use SABs would have a stiff somewhere (only A matters), and then maybe AKxx or AQxx in a side suit where knowing about the fitting honor is important.

This is why many relay slam bidding schemes include the options to both ask for controls/QPs with DCBs, or RKC + SABs. You want both options, although if you only want to pick one, the DCBs are more flexible I think.

[Free]

I think most is said by RobF and some previous posts.

Most of the time Queen-point ask + DCB will be best (or AK-ask + DCB). You stay relatively low and know about general strength. Later you'll know information about ALL the suits. Sometimes however, you might end up too high before you know the exact information in all suits (you might have 2 possibilities). So it's not 100% ok. The cases where it's not ok are solved by RKC + SAB/TAB.

If you need very specific information about 1 side suit, or just about trumps, I'd advise to use RKC + SAB. You ask for keycards and then ask about 1 suit. The responses to SAB's can take you to high levels very fast. That's why it's not a good method in most cases where you need to know about values in 2 or 3 suits. Needing information in 2 suits is the absolute limit, and you need to calculate up front if you'll have the possibility to get a response on a safe level.

You can also ask about trumps with a TAB (nice word for "SAB in trumps"). Responses are the same, except that you replace the Queen by the Jack (you're asking about A, K and J). Personally I haven't had the need to ask for the trump J, so I definitely wouldn't bother about the T.

Short summary:
- use AKQ/AK ask followed by DCB in most cases
- except if you need very specific information in 1 suit (or 2 with LOTS of space)

To illustrate my point about asking 1 suit only: in the example I gave before
- you started very low (3♠ RKC)
- you got the lowest RKC response (3NT is min, will take you 1 step higher)
- you didn't need to ask for trump Q (which can take 2-3 steps easily)
But you're already at 4NT after asking 1 suit! If you're looking for grand slam, you still have enough space to ask about a second suit. But if you were looking for small slam in ♥ then you can ask about ♣ with 5♣ (or ♦ with 5♦ - yes we ask about singletons as well). In this case, whenever partner has K, A, AQ or KQ you'll go past 5♥, so it's not as safe as you might think. After the 5♦ SAB you'll go past 5♥ whenever he has a top honour.

[keylime]

Consider Turbo and denial cuebids. Much easier to avoid the 5 level that way. There's exactly two sequences in C-cubed that is RKC.

[straube]

keylime, on Mar 11 2010, 12:35 PM, said:

Consider Turbo and denial cuebids. Much easier to avoid the 5 level that way. There's exactly two sequences in C-cubed that is RKC.

How does Turbo work?

[kenrexford]

straube, on Mar 11 2010, 01:37 PM, said:

keylime, on Mar 11 2010, 12:35 PM, said:

Consider Turbo and denial cuebids. Much easier to avoid the 5 level that way. There's exactly two sequences in C-cubed that is RKC.

How does Turbo work?

"Turbo" works really well, depending on what you mean.

Turbo snails: toss 'em in the tank and they feast on the sludge
Turbo Tax: the sludge that is "in the tank" uses this to explain feasting on the American taxpayers while avoiding taxes for themselves

[rbforster]

straube, on Mar 11 2010, 01:37 PM, said:

How does Turbo work?

"bridge + Turbo" - try the first hit.

[Free]

Rob F, on Mar 11 2010, 08:27 PM, said:

straube, on Mar 11 2010, 01:37 PM, said:

How does Turbo work?

"bridge + Turbo" - try the first hit.

Yes, all go to my blog and click the adsense links

One thing I forgot to mention: voids can be a problem if partner doesn't know about them. Sometimes you can jump if you have an odd number of keycards, but this is not always the case.

[the hog]

straube, on Mar 7 2010, 10:05 PM, said:

Let's say I know partner has 4-5-1-3 by his last bid of 3D. I have the choice of asking for
controls or queen points at 3H or bidding 3N or using the end signal of 4D to place a suit contract.

What's the best way to organize RKC here if I just want to ask?

3S-RKC hearts
4C-RKC spades
4H-RKC clubs
4S-RKC diamonds

or should I organize them according to suit ranks so as to leave enough room to stop in 5m when I'm looking for a minor suit slam?

3S-RKC clubs
4C-RKC diamonds
4H-RKC hearts
4S-RKC spades

Also, at what point should RKC be unavailable? For instance, if partner's last bid is 4C showing a 7420 shape, then we've probably run out of room. What about if his last bid was 3N?

Side question, I assume that for DCB after RKC, that the order is...
5 key cards
trump queen
side kings (longest suit to shortest suit, ties go to higher ranking)
trump jack
side queens (longest suit to shortest suit, ties go to higher ranking)

Singletons not scanned? Doubletons?

Step 1 control ask
3NT always to play
4D always end signal
Apart from these , key card - step 2 longest, step 3 2nd longest step 3 3rd longest, step 4 stiff