[kgr]

IMPs N/NS

Scoring: IMP

---

Pass 1D 2NT(1) 3S
4H 4S Pass Pass
5H 5S All Pass

(1): Unusual 5/5 H and C
On-line game. As usual without much discussion about bidding system.
I was sitting S. Standard unusal 2NT does promise 10HCP in long suits. I only have 2 more, so I thought I told it all?
Maybe 2 aces are more then partner can expect?
6H N/S lay-down.
Would you (N or S) bid it?

PS: This is a BBO tourney hand so I expect it will not be played anymore.
Uday, how long are hands 'active' on BBO? about 1 hour?

[whereagles]

It's better to evaluate two-suited hands in terms of losers, not high card points. This one has 6 losers, which upgrades to about 5 due to good controls. That's an above average hand.

How to show a hand which is a bit better than usual for a 2NT overcall requires some discussion with pard. If pard is experienced, you could try double 4S. He will realize you can't have trumps, so you must have extra values. With his honors fitting yours, he might have bid 6.

[kgr]

How much loosers are expected in general after a 2NT bid? 7 loosers?

[Free]

for me: NV 7-8, V 6-7

[joker_gib]

Commonly, 6 losers for two suiters that imply to play at the 3 level and till 8 losers for two suiters playable at the 2 level

[Gerben47]

The problem is that you don't know who has the diamond and who has the spade control. I wouldn't lose sleep over this.

Gerben

[kgr]

And everybody agrees with 2NT bid? The S hand is not too strong for 2NT?

[inquiry]

Quote

(1): Unusual 5/5 H and C
On-line game. As usual without much discussion about bidding system.
I was sitting S. Standard unusal 2NT does promise 10HCP in long suits. I only have 2 more, so I thought I told it all?
Maybe 2 aces are more then partner can expect?
6H N/S lay-down.
Would you (N or S) bid it?

First, everyone LOOK at the type of game (IMPS) and the vul (N/S yes, EW no). There is no such thing as a weak unusual 2NT in this situation. South has to have a VERY GOOD HAND. When you use things like Unusual 2NT, you should not have a between strength hand. It should be weak or strong, not intemediate.

So the question becomes is this South hand too "intermediate" for this 2NT Bid. If N/S were not vulnerable, I would not bid 2NT with this hand. I would overcall 1H. However, the minimum requirements for 2NT go up at this vul, so this hand is reasonable "maximum" for the weaker side of weak/strong nature of the two suited bid. So I don't object to 2NT.

But look at north. He has a monster double fit for his partner. The ♥ honors are wonderful, and the club fit to queen great too. North can count an easy 11 trikcs (surely south has at least five-five, that given teh vul include heart ACE amd both missiing club honors). So 5 heart and 5 club tricks seem a good bet. If south is missing a club honor, then he will have a trick one of the off suits.

IF partner was 2-5-1-5, you can throw spade away on the long club and ruff his spade loser, but if he is 1-5-2-5 you might have two quick diamond losers, and even if they lead a spade, you will lose two diamonds. But with what you expect to be 11 sure tricks at least, I think you have to try for slam. I would recommend the auction...

(1D)-2N-(3S)-4S

The four spade bid shows a control, denies one in diamonds, and slam interest in one, or the other, of partners suit. Here with south's hand, I would jump to 5NT over 4S, pick a slam. I guess we get to double 6S as they will not let you play 6H at this vul. Against 6SX you win 2C + 1H +1S +1D ruff with perfect defense for +800. If you fail to find your ♦ ruff, you will have done better in 5♥.

Quote

This is a BBO tourney hand so I expect it will not be played anymore.
Uday, how long are hands 'active' on BBO? about 1 hour?

Tournment hands are played during each round of a tournment. If you were playing one board per round, and 8 minutes per round, it would take no more than 8 minutes for all to play (unless tournment has sections and they are out of synch, in which case add the time of out snych, usuaally no more than a minute or two.

In the main room (not tournment), each hand is played 16 times. In general the timing is also over about an 8 to 10 minute range. Go to myhands http://online.bridge...-bin/history.pl open up some hands you played (or this one), and take a look at the time stamp of when the hand was completed... they are all very close these days (use to be when so few people on BBO, it might take a while to get the 16th table to play the hand).

Ben

[Free]

I'm not fond of this 2NT bid, I usually play 2-suiters as weak or GF. This one is in between, so a simple overcall, followed by a new suit is better imo. However, some people play this differently, and might approve this bid.

[kgr]

Ben,

I like your answer. No blame for S (me)

response I received on rgb:
After the bidding goes
(maybe already an under bid of 4H by N, but no agreements of 2NT strength so it could be acceptable)
Pass 1D 2NT 3S
4H 4S Pass Pass

"As North, I would have bid 5C instead of
5H to show the double fit and offer a
choice of games. Then South can bid 5D to
ask for a Spade control and N can bid 6H."

[inquiry]

kgr, on Jul 26 2004, 08:53 AM, said:

Ben,

I like your answer. No blame for S (me)

response I received on rgb:
After the bidding goes
(maybe already an under bid of 4H by N, but no agreements of 2NT strength so it could be acceptable)
Pass 1D 2NT 3S
4H 4S Pass Pass

"As North, I would have bid 5C instead of
5H to show the double fit and offer a
choice of games. Then South can bid 5D to
ask for a Spade control and N can bid 6H."

I don't think 5D so much ask for a spade control as it shows a diamond one.

With
X AJTxx xx AKJxx

Bid 5♥ and by inference you deny a ♦ control. with

xx AJTxx x AKJxx

Bid 5♦, showig a control and at least mild slam interest.

The problem with this auction is that 4♥ is not the right bid. If East passes 4♥ no one will bid again. Don't rely on the opponents to push you to your cold slams. The second problem with the auction is that when north bids 5♣, it is not clear he is not offering a second place to play (I would play 4♥ in 5-3 fit if they let me, but I prefer a saner 5-4 fit if forced to the five level).. north could easily hold...

xx Qxx Axx xxxxx or

x Qxx xxxx xxxxx (and trying to preemtp them out of their game)...

If north hugely underbids 4S the first time, he should not compound it by bidding ony 5C now (whose hand is it??). He should bid 4NT over 4S in the balance seat. This is a clear slam try. The ambiguity of the meaning of 5C is removed.

ben

[kgr]

Ben,

I have to agree with you again. You must be a star?
(..or I agree to easily )

Koen

[inquiry]

Lol.. no I am not a star... I am but a student of the game.

When I first started playing on BBO online, they said to include your play level. There was no pulldown box you could check your level as expert or novice, so people would type in novice, beginner, advanced, etc. The one I typed in (and is still there) says it all..

"Play = brilliant & stupid, varies by hand".. so on SOME hands I am a star, on ohters.. well really really bad.

Ben

[whereagles]

By the way.. there are two ways to play two-suited overcalls. With overcall strenght defined more or less like this:

Weak = 6-7 losers
Intermediate = 5 losers
Strong = 3-4 losers,

the most common way to play two-suiters is to overcall either weak or strong. The intermediate hand bids one suit at a time. The idea is simple: you have more precision. You'll miss an ocasional good contract for being preempted out of your second suit when you're intermediate, but it's much easier to bid at the right level when you're weak/strong.

The second way to play two-suiters is to always overcall, regardless of strenght. The idea here is to follow the principle that it's better to show distribution first, and strenght later. You'll have more trouble determining what level to play, but you'll always get to the right strain.

Both methods have a few more pros and cons. I prefer to overcall all the time.

[Rebound]

My 2 cents:

First, I agree with all who say this hand is not suited to 2NT. It is too in between in strength.

Second, has no one noticed that partner is taking a free bid at the 4 level vulnerable at IMPs? Partner can pass. This would incourage me to take a 5D call.

Third, after 1D/2NT/3S, i agree that partner should also be more aggressive and bid 4S.

[pclayton]

Its a little unlucky to make 6 on this layout; I'd be surprised if many pairs playing standard get there. But a few comments:

1. Michaels and Unusual 2N generally shows weak or very strong hands. I would classify this one as an in-between, but on the stronger side. As far as Ben's comment on the vulnerability, I agree, except for the fact that the call could be very distributional, but weak in terms of HCP / Controls. I don't object to a 2N call here to show a hand like: x, QJxxxx, void, Qxxxxx.

2. Over 3♠, presumably non-forcing (was it alerted?), North is foisted into 4♥'s. 4♠ is pretty trusting. Have the discussion with your pard on what this means, especially if you play Kickback.

3. I see no reason to try 5♣ at North's 2nd turn. To say this confirms a double fit and allows South to barge into slam is too double dummy for me. Wouldn't you try 5♣ with a hand like: xxx, xxxx, xxxxx, A, as a lead director against the upcoming 5♠?

Now, here's some other ideas on how to get to 6:

Playing standard:

(1♦) - 1♥ - (1♠) - 2♦
(DBL) - 4♣ - (4♠) - 5♣
(pass) - 5♦ - (pass) - 6♥

Playing Overcall structure:

((1♦) - 2♦- (2♠) - 3♠
(DBL) - 4N - (Pass) - 5♠
(pass) - 6♥

2♦ Shows 0-7 losers and hearts and clubs; equal or longer clubs
3♠ is a general force, but promises a control since both cues are available
4N is 6 Ace key card
5♥ shows 2 keys with the higher ranking queen

[Trpltrbl]

I tend to play 2 NT as weak or GF. Therefore on this hand I would have bid ♥ first.
Now that I bid 2 NT, I have not much else to do. But if pd would have bid 5♣ after 4♠ indicating double fit and nice hand I would have bid 6♥.

Mike

[luke warm]

inquiry, on Jul 26 2004, 03:51 PM, said:

"Play = brilliant & stupid, varies by hand".. so on SOME hands I am a star, on ohters.. well really really bad.

Ben

i have to say that our results together have been pretty good, and for that to happen you had to be brilliant those particular nites

[mikestar]

North's raw loser count is 7, but with all prime cards and two nine-card fits he must deduct at least one loser.

If South's minimum at this vulerablity is 6 losers, then North shoulkd check for controls and drive to slam unless NS are off two fast tricks.

If South might have 7 losers, the five level should be safe nad North should bid 4S as a clear cut slam try.