[straube]

1C-1D=semipositive (not unbalanced 5S and <4H)
.....1H-natural hearts OR GF relay
..........1S-other
...............1N-GF relay
....................2C-bal, no major
.........................2D-
....................2D-C/D
....................2H-C
....................2S-any 4441
....................2N-D
...............2C-5 clubs
...............2D-5 diamonds
...............2H-6H
...............2S-5S/4H
..........1N-four spades, not four hearts (can't be 5S/4 or 6S)
...............P-5 clubs, minimum
...............2C-relay
....................2D-S/C reverser
....................2H-bal
.........................2N-5 spades
..............................3D-5-2-3-3
..............................3H-5-3-2-3
..............................3S-5-3-3-2
.........................3C-4 clubs
..............................3H-4-2-3-4
..............................3S-4-3-2-4
.........................3D-4-2-4-3
.........................3H-4-3-4-2
.........................3S-4-3-3-3

....................2S-S/D reverser
...............2D-5 diamonds
...............2H-6 hearts
...............2S-four spades
...............2N-misfitting, extra
......... 2C-bal, H/C
...............2H-bal
....................2N-5H
.........................3D-2-5-3-3
.........................3H-3-5-2-3
.........................3S-3-5-3-2
.....................3C-4S
.........................3H-4-4-2-3
.........................3S-4-4-3-2
.....................3D-4C
.........................3S-2-4-3-4
.........................3N-3-4-2-4
.....................3H-2-4-4-3
.....................3S-3-4-4-2
.....................3N-3-4-3-3
...............2S-H/C
..........2D-H/S
..........2H-H
..........2S-H/D
.....1S-four spades, f
..........1N-no fit
...............2C-4S/5C
...............2D-4S/5D
...............2H-4S/5H
...............2S-6S
.....1N-bal or semibalanced
.....2C-clubs
.....2D-diamonds
.....2H-5H/4m
.....2S-5S/4m

1C-1H=0-4 hcp OR 9+ balanced
.....1S-21+
..........1N-9+ balanced
...............2C-relay
..........2H-0-2 hcp
...............2S-natural, nf
...............2N-natural, nf
..........other-relaying out shape with 3-4
.....1N-15-20
..........2C-transfers, to play or to relay out balanced pattern


1C-1S=GF
.....2C
..........2H-C
..........2S-C/D
.....2D-C/H
.....2H-D
.....2S-D/H
1C-1N=GF S, S/D, S/C
1C-2C=GF H, S/H
1C-2D=semipositive 5S/D 2-suiter
1C-2H=semipositive S
1C-2S=semipositive 5S/C
1C-2N=3-suited, GF

[straube]

deleted

[akhare]

Interesting -- don't you think that 1♣ - 1♠ should be the balanced 9+ hand?
Given that it's so common, you want to rightside NT by allowing opener to just bid 1N.

It should be quite easy to sort out the minor suit oriented hands over 1♣ - 1♥ (0-4) or 9+ with no 5CM.

[straube]

Thanks for the feedback. It would certainly be nice for opener to grab the NT.

One of the things I liked about 1C-1H as a two-way was that in competition, opener could treat the bid as negative and let responder double back in with the balanced hand. At that point, opener will know 8 of partner's suit cards. If instead 1H is negative OR unbalanced with mostly minors, then a subsequent double by responder is less meaningful. I mean, imagine 1C P 1H (3H) P P dbl.

If 1C-1S is 8+ balanced, then I have the ability and room to reverse relay a goodly number of hand types. Maybe a third of the unbalanced types. That's a positive that my scheme lacks. I can never reverse relay.

But it's probably more useful for declarer to grab the notrump when partner has an unbalanced hand with minors than when he has a balanced hand. 1C-1S use isn't fixed in stone, but I'm likely to put C, D, C/D, and other combinations with minor suits into it.

Have you seen any math errors in this? I've noticed that I may not have room for the 5440s. I think I have room for at least most, but it's close.

Btw, something I've avoided is the loss that comes from 1C-1S (neg), 1N. Seems like there's a big difference when playing a strong club relay system between 1C-1S, 1N nf and 1C-1H, 1N nf.

[rbforster]

straube, on Feb 8 2010, 11:10 PM, said:

1C-1D=semipositive (not unbalanced 5S and <4H)
.....1H-natural hearts OR GF relay

1C-1S=GF

Have you considered using the same relay structure over 1♣ for GF hands that you use after 1♣-1♦-1♥ for semipositive ones? The right-siding conditions are a little different, but broadly they're quite similar and I think that would really let you take advantage of the same symmetric relay approach in both situations. I would think that having a cheap unambiguous GF relay (1♥) would be one of the main advantages of having a purely semipositive response (with no double negative hands).

This would leave all your 1♣-1♥ as just 0-4.

[straube]

I don't think I understand. I'd love to have an unambiguous 1H, but where do I put the 9+ balanced? I'm tight on space for the GF hands. Also, I don't see how they can be quite parallel because 1C-2D/2H/2S are semipositives for spades while 1C-1D, 1H-2D/2H/2S are semipositives for hearts. If you wouldn't mind writing out what you have in mind, I'd like to see it. Thanks

I think I see a problem with this structure...1C-1H, 2L-? no relays when responder has 9+ balanced. Opener is limited, but we're at a disadvantage when responder has a superpositive.

[rbforster]

straube, on Feb 9 2010, 09:32 AM, said:

If you wouldn't mind writing out what you have in mind, I'd like to see it. 

Here's the very high level version:

1♣-1♦ any semipositive (then 1♥ GF relay)
1♣-1♥ double negative (then 1♠ relays)
1♣-1♠+ GF shape relays

In more detail, maybe something like this:

1♣-1♦ any semipositive
.....1♥ art, enough extras to GF
..............1♠+ shape relays by semipositive hand (see below)
.....1♠ two-suiter, limited (not both minors)
.....1N+ natural and limited (2m = 5+, 2M = 6+)
.....2N both minors 5/5+, limited

1♣-1♥ double negative
.......1♠ relay, but probly not necessarily GF
.......1N+ natural and limited

For the 1♠+ relays, used for both GF and semipositives, you can try to make your own, but here's an example:

1♠ balanced or diamonds
.......2♣ diamonds or minors
...............2♥ diamonds
...............2♠+ minors
.......2♦+ balanced

1N spades
.......2♦ spades and clubs
.......2♥ spades
.......2♠+ spades and diamonds

2♣ hearts or majors
.......2♥ hearts
.......2♠+ majors

2♦ hearts and clubs
2♥ clubs
2♠+ hearts and diamonds

[straube]

Very symmetric. I like it.

I'm disappointed that 1C-1D, 1H isn't a 2-way bid (hearts or relay); that feature enabled my structure to identify not only 2-suiters but the respective length of 2-suiters for the minimal openers.

OTOH, you're going to be able to show quite a few patterns with your 1C-1D, 1S. I assume the continuation 1N-2C probably shows 5/4 or 4/5 in the majors and 2D asks for the longer major. However, you continue, seems like you have many possibilities.

I also like how you use (I think) 1C-1H, 1S...not as a bigger hand, but I imagine to show various distributions (more 2-suiters). Perhaps you use 1C-1H, 2C as the 21+ relay.

Anyhow, much to commend. Do you have more of it written out?

Also, I'd be interested to know what awm thinks of your structure and the one I proposed. I think I like yours better, but I still like mine a little.

[akhare]

Rob F, on Feb 9 2010, 02:04 PM, said:

Here's the very high level version:

1♣-1♦ any semipositive (then 1♥ GF relay)
1♣-1♥ double negative (then 1♠ relays)
1♣-1♠+ GF shape relays

Very interesting, but 1♣ - 1♦ (SP) is still as vulnerable to 4th hand preemption as 1♣ - 1♦ (negative).

Perhaps the trick might be turn this on its head and play 1♣ - 1♦ (GF) and 1♣ - 1♥ (double negative) and the rest as SPs? The downside of course, is that we may end up too high...

[straube]

akhare, on Feb 10 2010, 02:32 AM, said:

Rob F, on Feb 9 2010, 02:04 PM, said:

Here's the very high level version:

1♣-1♦ any semipositive (then 1♥ GF relay)
1♣-1♥ double negative (then 1♠ relays)
1♣-1♠+ GF shape relays

Very interesting, but 1♣ - 1♦ (SP) is still as vulnerable to 4th hand preemption as 1♣ - 1♦ (negative).

Perhaps the trick might be turn this on its head and play 1♣ - 1♦ (GF) and 1♣ - 1♥ (double negative) and the rest as SPs? The downside of course, is that we may end up too high...

It's vulnerable, but it's an "honest" bid. Our best spot could be 1N and like you said, if we inverted it with the positives, we could wind up too high. Also, think about how much better this is than 1C-1D negative (0-7). It's far far better. The cost is that we can't reverse relay and our positives are up a step. Reasonable costs I think for leaving opener able to show various shapes opposite both the semipositives AND the negative.

Where do the 3-suited hands go? That's my only concern. Otherwise, I think I've found what I want to play.

[straube]

Looking for suggestions...

1C-1S, 1N
.....2C-minors or diamonds
.....2D-hearts or any 4333
..........2S-4S or 4333
...............3C-4S
....................3H-4-4-2-3
....................3S-4-4-3-2
...............3D-3-3-3-4
...............3H-3-3-4-3
...............3S-3-4-3-3
...............3N-4-3-3-3
..........2N-5 hearts
..........3C-four hearts, four clubs
...............3H-2-4-3-4
...............3S-3-4-2-4
..........3D-2-4-4-3
..........3H-3-4-4-2
.....2H-3-suited
..........2N-minor shortness
...............3D-club shortness
....................3S-4-4-4-1
....................3N-4-4-5-0
....................4C-4-5-4-0
....................4D-5-4-4-0
...............3H-4-4-1-4
...............3S-4-4-0-5
...............3N-4-5-0-4
...............4C-5-4-0-4
..........3C-heart shortness
...............3H-4-1-4-4
...............3S-4-0-4-5
...............3N-4-0-5-4
...............4C-5-0-4-4
..........3D-1-4-4-4
..........3H-0-4-4-5
..........3S-0-4-5-4
..........3N-0-5-4-4

.....2S-bal, 4 spades
..........3C-4 clubs
..........3D-etc
.....2N-bal, 5 spades
.....3C-5 clubs
..........3H-2-3-3-5
..........3S-3-2-3-5
..........3N-3-3-2-5
.....3D-minors
..........3S-2-3-4-4
..........3N-3-2-4-4
.....3H-2-3-5-3
.....3S-3-2-5-3
.....3N-3-3-5-2

[akhare]

straube, on Feb 10 2010, 02:48 AM, said:

Also, think about how much better this is than 1C-1D negative (0-7). It's far far better.

Is it far better in that it allows opener to know that we own at least half of the deck? If so, given the relative infrequency of the 0-4 range, opener may assume that it's the case for 1♣ - 1♦ (negative) and be right most of the time.

IMO, for SP responses, it's much more important to identify the hand type and get the suits on the table ASAP (especially on hands with one or more major suits)...

[straube]

I see a big difference between the 0-7 and the 5-7 range. For example, in competitive auctions (fourth hand speaks), one can have forcing passes through agreed levels.


1C-P-1D (semi)-1S-P would be forcing

1C-P-1D (semi)-3C-P would not be forcing

1C-P-1D (semi)-1S-2H would be forcing

1C-P-1D (semi)-2C-P-P-2H would not be forcing

Now the trouble imo with semipositives that are 1C-1H and 1C-1N and higher (as are played in Moscito I think) is that they don't leave enough room for finding fit. 1C-1H particularly (those without 5M4 or 6M) is extremely preemptive to our side.

1C-1H(semipositive without 5M/4 or 6M), 1S=GF relay (so unavailable for fit-finding)
So many auctions go 1C-1H, 1N

True, it's good to show the major suit semipositives, but together they account for something like 40% (guesstimate) of the semipositives and they can usually muster a bid at the 2-level and perhaps the 3-level if there's subsequent interference.

If 1C-1D (semipositive), then we could have something like...and this is a rough draft

.....1S-has a minor suit
..........1N-relay
...............2C-clubs and a major
....................2D-asks major
...............2D-diamonds
...............2M-4M/5D
...............2N-4D/6C
...............3C-6D/4C
..........2L-six-card suit
.....1N-balanced
.....2C-majors
..........2D-asks longer major
.....2D-6M
..........2H-no invite opposite hearts
..........2S-invite opposite hearts, not spades
..........2N-asks major and strength
.....2H-5H/4m
.....2S-5S/4m
.....2N-5m/5m
.....3C-clubs

and with Rob F's structure, we have almost as much fit-finding after 1C-1H because 1S is available there, too.

[rbforster]

straube, on Feb 10 2010, 02:48 AM, said:

think about how much better this is than 1C-1D negative (0-7).  It's far far better.  The cost is that we can't reverse relay and our positives are up a step.  Reasonable costs I think for leaving opener able to show various shapes opposite both the semipositives AND the negative.

Where do the 3-suited hands go?  That's my only concern.  Otherwise, I think I've found what I want to play.

Glad you like it - I just made it up in response to your suggestion, so just be aware it's not field tested. I do agree that having a 1♦ as 5-7 is much better than 0-7 in competition since you can play low level forcing passes.

In this case, I'd recommend putting 4441/5440's into "balanced". Normally I put 5440's into 2-suited, but here the 2-suited relays are already pretty high and the balanced relays should have more free space. You can use TOSR relays over all of the ones I gave, just +1 step from the usual TOSR schemes for 1-suited and 2-suited hands. You'll need to fit in the 3-suiters with balanced, but that shouldn't be too hard.

As for non-relay continuations, I have some favorite schemes I like (outlined above), but you don't have to use those. In fact, in both the situations:

1♣-1♦-1♠+ any non-GF hand by opener
1♣-1♥-? opener's rebid after a double negative

you can essentially play any of your favorite "1NT Defenses", where the 1♠ bid takes the place of double (and 1N is natural and limited). So here's a DONT Version:

1♣-1♦: "DONT style" fit finding for minimum openers

1♥ GF relay
1♠ 1 long suit (then by responder 1N=good hand, 2♣=bad hand, pass/correct)
1N natural, balanced or 4441
2♣ clubs+another
2♦ diamonds+major
2♥ majors
2♠ natural
2N both minors
3X natural long suit

Similarly you could play Woolsey, Meyerson, Cap, etc. You could even give up on the GF relay over the double negative and play the same thing there. In particular, if you picked a method with a lot of forcing bids, you wouldn't need the GF relay since opener could just describe his hand without fear of being passed. Here's an example:

1♣-1♥: "Woolsey Style" fit-finding after double negative

1♠ 4 card major + longer minor; or GF balanced, one minor, or 5+M/4+♣ (rebids 2N or 3m or 3M)
1N non-invitational balanced (15-20)
2♣ both majors; or 21-22 balanced (rebids 2N)
2♦ one major; or 23-24 balanced (rebids 2N)
2M 5+ major, 4+ minor (NF)
2N both minors
3m long minor (NF)
3M 5+M, 4+♦ GF

You could just as easily play this version over 1♣-1♦ by minimum openers for consistency, just omitting the GF hand options in some of the rebids.

[straube]

Can you improve upon the 1C-1S scheme I posted?

I'm not wild about playing DONT over 1C-1D, 1H. I don't want responder to have to guess which higher ranking suit opener has. I posted a structure based on TOSR which does that. Their 1C-1D, 1S shows an unspecified minor suit and their rebids are built around that.

TOSR also uses 1C-1D, 1S-1N as a strength showing rebid (whereas 2C would be p/c). Now I don't know whether TOSR's 1N promises a rebid. It doesn't seem like ours should. Why split up a 5-7 point range before hearing opener's description of his hand? No. Opener should just show his hand (doesn't have enough to GF) and then responder should decide whether to invite opposite that. Certainly could depend on the fit shown.

So, in a sense, we have 1C-1D, 1S-2C freed up for something else. Clubs possibly. Probably a better use for it.

I've pretty much given up on 1C-1H, 1S being GF relay. Seems like it should mirror 1C-1D, 1S.

Would you mind explaining more of the Woolsey structure? I don't understand 1C-1H, 1S continuations in particular.

The other thing I want to think about is what the point count ranges should be for the semipositive. If it's a narrow 5-7 that won't come up as frequently as 3-5 slam points (A=3,K=2, Q=1) and we won't have as many 1C-1D auctions. What's best strategy? I'm thinking to widen the range a little so as to include hands that intend to GF later (like an 8 or bad 9 hcp hand), but then responder can never be dropped in an auction.

[rbforster]

straube, on Feb 11 2010, 02:19 AM, said:

I'm not wild about playing DONT over 1C-1D, 1H.

I agree, I was just giving that as an example. It's bad especially over the double negative since almost all the DONT bids are natural so opener would need to jump or something with a very strong hand. Having cheap artificial forcing bids can still get you out at the 2 level if responder shows a very weak hand.

Quote

I've pretty much given up on 1C-1H, 1S being GF relay.  Seems like it should mirror 1C-1D, 1S.
TOSR also uses 1C-1D, 1S-1N as a strength showing rebid (whereas 2C would be p/c).

Would you mind explaining more of the Woolsey structure?  I don't understand 1C-1H, 1S continuations in particular.

In case you aren't familiar with Woolsey, normally the responses (to 1N-X showing 4M/5+m) are 2♣ p/c, 2♦ asking for partner's major, and 2M long suit and natural. Here we also have the additional 1N response, so I'm not sure what the best approach is to best make use of this. Rearranging one or two things, how about something like this? It's actually fairly similar to the minor-oriented one you suggested.

1♣-(1♦ or 1♥):

1♠ 4M/5+m min; or GF: ♣,♦,minors, or 5M/4+♣
........1N asking with a good hand, promises a rebid (opener bids as over 2♣ below)
........2♣ p/c with a bad hand (in context)
...............P 4M/5+♣ min
...............2♦ 4M/5+♦ min
...............2M 5+M/4+♣ GF
...............2N both minors GF
...............3m long minor GF
.........2♦ asking for major, could be a good hand
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2M 4M/5+ minor min
...............2N both minors GF
...............3m long minor GF
...............3M 5+M/4+♣ GF
..........2M long suit, weak hand

1N non-invite bal (15-18 over 1♦, 15-20 over 1♥); strong NT systems on
2♣ both majors or 21-22 bal (2♦ asks for longer, 2M weak preference; then GF hands may raise/jump or bid 2N if balanced)
2♦ 1 major or 23-24 bal (2♥ p/c weak, 2♠ p/c likes hearts, 2N good hand; GF hands jump or bid 2N if bal)
2M 5+M/4+minor NF (2N good hand ask; 3♣ p/c bad hand)
2N GF balanced 24+
3m long minor NF (natural continuations)
3M 5+M/4+♦ GF (natural continuations)

The above is mostly designed to work after the double negative, so some of opener's rebids will be undefined in the semipositive sequence. You could use those to refine the distributional but limited hands opener might have (i.e 6/5's or 6/4's). For example,

1♣-1♦:

1♠ 5+ primary minor: 4M/5+m, 5M/6+m, or 6/4 minors (all min hands)
........1N asking with a good hand, promises a rebid (opener bids as over 2♣ below)
........2♣ p/c with a bad hand (in context)
...............P 4M/5+♣ min
...............2♦ 4M/5+♦ min
...............2M 5M/6+m NF (natural continuations, 3♣ p/c)
...............2N 6♦4♣
...............3♣ 6♣4♦
........2♦ asking for a major
...............2M natural
...............2N 6♦4♣
...............3♣ 6♣4♦
2N 5/5+ minors
3m long minor

Quote

what the point count ranges should be for the semipositive.  If it's a narrow 5-7 that won't come up as frequently as 3-5 slam points (A=3,K=2, Q=1) and we won't have as many 1C-1D auctions. What's best strategy?  I'm thinking to widen the range a little so as to include hands that intend to GF later (like an 8 or bad 9 hcp hand), but then responder can never be dropped in an auction.

With a 16+ club, I think 5-7 is about right subject to judgement (downgrade some soft 8's). Whether to widen your range (in essence including some GF hands in 1♦) is something you will need to test once you settle on a system after 1♣-1♦. I think the important thing is that your system be able to handle the usual semipositives hands well. It may also be the case that responder ends up having forcing bids he can make that allow some slightly stronger-but-control-poor hands to be handled also, but I wouldn't design it with that in mind (the GF hands can always relay directly).

[akhare]

Rob F, on Feb 10 2010, 11:37 PM, said:

I do agree that having a 1♦ as 5-7 is much better than 0-7 in competition since you can play low level forcing passes.

What kind of structure would you recommend over 1♣ - 1♦ (5-7) and higher level interference?

For example, some pairs play pass / double inversion after 1♣ - <Positive> - (3X). Basically, X by opener isn't for penalty and shows at least two other places to play and P asks for a X.

I don't think that this agreement necessarily makes sense after say 1♣ - 1♦ (5-7) - 3♠.

Should a direct bid by opener, say 2♠ after 1♣ - 1♦ (5-7) - (2♥) be to play and should stronger hands start off with a X?

[straube]

I'm still thinking about Rob's structures.

As to Atul's question...I'm thinking we're in a forcing auction up through 2N...

1C P 1D (2S)
.....dbl by opener is takeout
.....pass by opener is forcing and invites a dbl by responder (for takeout) or
..........2N or 3L. Responder's bids are not forcing

1C P 1D (2H)
.....dbl by opener is takeout
.....2S by opener is forcing
..........2N by responder is his most negative bid...doesn't promise a heart stopper

1C P 1D (3C)
.....3D is forcing

1C P 1D (3C)
.....P is not forcing

1C P 1D (3C) P P
.....3D is not forcing

Not sure what happens at low levels where relays are still possible. Seems like we'd do better to revert to natural bidding over anything but double.

[straube]

I'm still digesting those structures, but they seem strong...especially for the 1H response.

I've fretted a bit because it's usually just death to have a weak responder bid NT first, but this structure only allows responder to bid NT when opener has a distributional hand. Responder also gets to show whether he is top or bottom of his 0-4 range. I assume, however, that you meant that 1N only promises a rebid after 1C-1D and not 1C-1H (unless opener makes a GF).

1C-1H, 2C-
Good use of the 2C rebid but it would be really nice to know whether responder has a 4-card major or not...because the 21-22 pt hand could raise a fitting major instead of rebidding 2N.

Perhaps
1C-1H, 2C-2D should ask, but may have 3S/1H
1C-1H, 2C-2H should promise only 3H
1C-1H, 2C-2S should promise 4S and deny 4H (cause you might as well show what you can than what you can't)

Wrong-sided though. But maybe 1C-1H, 2C-2S should show 4S and 0-2 hcp.

What would 1C-1H, 2C-2H, 2S show? 6S/4H?

I think Atul was asking for Rob's opinion on agreement after competition over 1C-1D. I'm interested, too.

So in Woolsey, does 1C-1S, 2D promise both 4-card majors? I'm a little concerned about losing a natural diamond bid by responder.

As 1C-1H, 1S-1N shows something...I think the continuations should take advantage of that. You have 2 ways of showing 5M/4C for example...one GF and the other not...but opener hasn't been able to take advantage of knowing whether responder has a value before deciding whether to GF.

[straube]

How about something like...

1C-1H, 1S
.....1N-0-2
..........P-minimum, 5 clubs
..........2C-GF
..........2D-minimum, 5 diamonds
..........2M-5M/4m, nf but extras
..........3C-6 clubs
.....2C-3-4, denies 4 clubs
..........2D-5 diamonds, minimum
..........2M-four M, forcing
...............S1-denies 4 diamonds, denies 4M
...............S2-shows 4 diamonds, denies 4M
...............S3-shows 4M
..........3M-5M, 4m
....................3N-no fit
.....2D-3-4, promises 4 clubs, denies 4 diamonds
.....2M-0-2, 6 cds
.....2N-3-4, 4/4 minors
..........3M-5M/4m