[Chamaco]

Hi all,

say RHO opens 1S (assume "SAYC" or similar) and u hold, at IMPS,
♠AQxx♥x♦QJTx♣AKxx

This hand has to decide whether passing and bidding later but second round bidding often fails in describing quite strong hand.
On the other hand, 4441 hands are often treated as balanced by some players.

So, is bidding 1NT reasonable or better pass in the following cases ?

--------------------------------------------------------------

1 none vuln
1.1 1S opener opened 1st seat (both LHO and pard are unpassed hand)
1.2 1S opener is 2nd seat (pard passed hand)
1.3 1S opener is 3rd seat (pard and LHO passed hand)

2 All vuln
2.1 1S opener opened 1st seat (both LHO and pard are unpassed hand)
2.2 1S opener is 2nd seat (pard passed hand)
2.3 1S opener is 3rd seat (pard and LHO passed hand)

3 Unfavourable vuln (vuln vs not)
3.1 1S opener opened 1st seat (both LHO and pard are unpassed hand)
3.2 1S opener is 2nd seat (pard passed hand)
3.3 1S opener is 3rd seat (pard and LHO passed hand)

4 Favourable vuln (NV vs vuln)
4.1 1S opener opened 1st seat (both LHO and pard are unpassed hand)
4.2 1S opener is 2nd seat (pard passed hand)
4.3 1S opener is 3rd seat (pard and LHO passed hand)

-----------------------------------------------------------

What would be your choice if the hand was stronger or weaker by one hcp ?
E,g,
♠AQxx♥x♦KJTx♣AKxx
♠AJxx♥x♦QJTx♣AKxx

[the hog]

Mauro, I like bidding 1NT frequently. This is a 1N overcall for me.
All vulnerabilities.

[whereagles]

Not easy. If you pass now, planning to double for take out later, it might turn out ok:

(1S) pass (1NT) pass
(2m) pass (2H) pass
pass dbl

but it can also force you too high:

(1S) pass (1NT) pass
(2m) pass (2H) pass
(3H) dbl

Overcalling 1NT might lead pard (who is short in spades and thus rates to have 4+ hearts) to bid 2/3H and that's not ideal. But, since your hand has 4 quick tricks, that might be the lesser evil. At least you're butting-in at the 1 level, not 3 or 4 level!

Prolly better still is to always pass

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Jul 23 2004, 10:10 AM, said:

Overcalling 1NT might lead pard (who is short in spades and thus rates to have 4+ hearts) to bid 2/3H and that's not ideal. But, since your hand has 4 quick tricks, that might be the lesser evil. At least you're butting-in at the 1 level, not 3 or 4 level!

Yes, that was my reasoning
The "In-quick/out-quick" principle: I prefer to stretch at the 1 level rather than at the 2 or 3 level.
Whenver I pass such hands, I later feel an unresistable urge to balance later at high level, and either we're in trouble, or pard does not play me for such strength and does not bid game with 8 decent hcp.

[Free]

Dbl, 15+ any

[inquiry]

All my 1NT overcalls are offshape when playing with regular partners as I like raptor (Polish) 1NT overcalls :-)

With a pickup, occassional partner who is not yet enlightened to the advantages of raptor, then I would absolutley bid 1NT with the hand you showed. I also even more frequenlty balance in NT with off-shaped hands.

For fun, look at this hand and assume RHO passed, what would you open. My choice will surprise many, this hand falls in as a minimum 2♣ (artificial, strong forcing) for me. Yes, from another planet, but Chamaco take a look at the responding scheme I posted on such three suited hands and see how well it would have done with the hand opposite this...
(see thread... 4441 and 5440 hands in forcing 2C

For other off-shape NT overcalls, I am sure you probalby would bid this hand the same way I did...

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 Pass  Pass  2♥    3NT
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

---

This was my hand in a team game two days ago. The auction went the same way at both tables, holding my hand at the second table was a BBO Gold Star. Neither of us worried to much about the singleton ♠.

Ben

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Jul 23 2004, 12:10 PM, said:

All my 1NT overcalls are offshape when playing with regular partners as I like raptor (Polish) 1NT overcalls :-)

Just by curiosity (since I am planning to use the Raptor too....): using Raptor, what would u bid with the given hands ?
pass or double planning to bid NT if pard bids our shortness ?

[hrothgar]

Chamaco, on Jul 23 2004, 03:51 PM, said:

Just by curiosity (since I am planning to use the Raptor too....): using Raptor, what would u bid with the given hands ?

Comment the first: This is an easy 1NT overcall

Comment the second:

I like Raptor, however, if you are going to play this, you really need to integrate this into a comprehensive overcall structure. In particualr,you are going to need to monkey with your direct seat doubles...

[Chamaco]

hrothgar, on Jul 23 2004, 01:55 PM, said:

I like Raptor, however, if you are going to play this, you really need to integrate this into a comprehensive overcall structure.  In particualr,you are going to need to monkey with your direct seat doubles...

I thought raptor had the *advantage* of cleaning the t/o doubles hands from offshape doubles such a 5m+4M hands.

as far as I can see the only awkwardnesss added by Raptor were:

1) a 15/bad 16 balanced hand may either double if it has tolerance for pard's rebid; otherwise it will pas waiting for pard's reopening;

2) giving up the natural notrump overcall means that balancer should be more enterprising since (if pard has the natural 1NT hand but had to pass) there is still a chance for game even if he holds only a good 8/9 hcp.

3) t/o double followed by 1NT rebid is lighter than standard , say 16-19 instead of 18-20 or so

4) t/o double followed by 2NT is about a standard 2NT opener = about 20-21/22 hcp



Comments ?

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Jul 23 2004, 10:05 AM, said:

Comments ?

Advantage of raptor is....

1) An overcall of 2♣ or 2♦ essentially never has a side four card major (ALERT the overcall). Helps with your bidding and play if you end up on defense.

2) Off shape takeout doubles are a thing of the pass, and no need to worry about the "equal conversion" thing anymore. IF you double and then bid a minor you got a really good hand.

3) The good news about number 2, your partner is more free to apply law of total tricks and pressure bidding because of the implied fit after the takeout double.

The disadvantage is clear, you lose your natural 1NT overcall. IF that bid is important to you, don't play raptor. However, after playing overcall structure for a few years and Raptor since then, I don't find I miss the 1NT overcall at all. With a balanced 15 to 18 I pass. If the opponents play the hand, they have a hard time locating the hcp. IF I am balanced stronger than that, I double and bid NT next.

As for your comment that t/o followed by 1NT is lighter, I play it as equal or stronger than most people.

On your hypothecal 4144 hand, playing raptor you CAN NOT DOUBLE (implied fit and all). Your choices, are pass, 2NT (unusual) and a minor suit overcall. Pass is a standout.

ben

[hrothgar]

Here is a brief description of my preferred overcall methods.

For simplicity, lets assume a 1♦ by RHO

Double = "Power" Double: One of three different hand types

1. Strong Single suited hand
2. Strong Balanced hand (18+ HCP)
3. Strong takeout double

1H = 4+ Hearts, could be balanced (4432 or even 4333)
1S = 4+ Spades, could be balanced (4432 or even 4333)
1N = 5+ Clubs and 4 cards in either major
2C = 5+ Clubs
2D = Weak, pure takeout double of Diamonds
2H = 5+ Hearts and 5+ Spades, intermediate strength
2S = 5+ Spades and 5+ Clubs, intermediate strength
2N = Strong hand, 5+/5+ shape
3C = 5+ Clubs and 5+ hearts, intermediate strength
3D = Stopper ask
3H = Weak, single suited
3S = Weak, single suited

This scheme allows us to show most of the "important" hand types quickly and efficiently.

[pclayton]

Our power doubles promise at least a doubleton in all suits. We don't use the double to show the awkward strong single suiter (Overcall Structure purists use a double jump overcall, i.e., (1♣) - 3♠ to show these hands, but we don't like giving up on our preempts). With the big single suiter, we make a single overcall, although we are adding in NAMYATS overcalls for the majors (I've gotten conflicting viewpoints from directors; anyone know if they are legal?)

With an another Queen, I might lie and make a power double. For now I pass, hoping to make a takeout double of hearts later. If the opponents end up in something besides hearts, I go quietly, as partner holds no more than a King, and we probably don't have a great fit anywhere.

[mikestar]

Ben,

How do you handle your Raptor shaped hands in balancing seat? I assume you need a natural 1N bid in this position?

[Cascade]

My view is tainted ...

Partner recently overcalled 1NT with this hand or its near cousin and the next hand bid 2minor and I bid 2♥ with a seven count ♥ AJxxx. This was poor as opener was 5-5 in the majors. Luckily opener had a partner who rescued him into 2♠ with small doubleton support which I doubled competitively and partner declined to compete further so we escaped with 500 or 800 but 2♥ would not have been pretty.

Having said that I think that it is reasonable to bid over 1♠ and 1NT is the closest thing there is to a sensible bid.

This hand is one that I describe as "high variance" if you bid 1NT and survive the auction you will probably be happy with your decision if you don't it will be disaster. The fact is that bridge players have not seen the utility in evolving a method to show 16 good points with a stopper in the opponent's suit and a shortage in the unbid major. So you pays your money and you take your pick.

I wouldn't criticize partner for bidding 1NT but neither would I criticize a partner who elected to pass - Defending 1♠ undoubled could easily be a great success.

[inquiry]

mikestar, on Jul 24 2004, 02:17 AM, said:

Ben,

How do you handle your Raptor shaped hands in balancing seat? I assume you need a natural 1N bid in this position?

I know some pairs that use raptor in balancing seat, but you are correct, there I revert to normal balancing doubles.

[Fluffy]

Cascade, on Jul 24 2004, 07:16 AM, said:

I wouldn't criticize partner for bidding 1NT but neither would I criticize a partner who elected to pass - Defending 1♠ undoubled could easily be a great success.

I am with you, but I would bid 1NT on all of the cases given (even the 15 HCP count).

I don´t thik this problem has anything to do with vulnerability.

[Trpltrbl]

1 NT, but I better start watching out doing that in tournaments on BBO, since they keep track of frequent psychers now. And I am sure this they will qualify as a psych.
Kinda start feeling like limited 199-er game, where you can only play stayman and blackwood and nothing else. Since you might have an advantage over your poor mislead opps

Mike

[Free]

Trpltrbl, on Jul 26 2004, 07:34 PM, said:

I am sure this they will qualify as a psych.

If this is a psych, then what is "creative bidding"??? Saturday I had a funny one... Bidding goes 1♥(4+) - Dbl - 1♠(my bid) - p - 2♥ - all pass. I had only 3♠ and my LHO called the TD to report a psych. The TD said "come on, this ain't a psych, this is creative bidding" Btw, my cc says "frequent creative bidding" LOL