[zasanya]

Scoring: IMP

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P opens a precision ♦ (11-15 ♦ could be single.)-rho1♠-you2♦ (forcing and 5 cards and10+)-lho2♠-Opener3♦-rho3♠-You?

Opener has denied 4 card ♥ by his failure to dbl 2♠ .3♦ shows 4+♦

[655321]

I would bid 5♦.

3NT will likely go down on the obvious spade lead unless there are 9 top tricks. Anyway if there are 9 top tricks 5♦ will often make too (the same 9 tricks plus 2 spade ruffs).

I wouldn't double 3♠. Partner has 0 or 1 spade, and probably 5 or more diamonds.

[Codo]

5 ♦, there are hands with a subminimum that makes game likely.

I doubt that they can make 3 Spade, but I guess that the chances in 5 diamond to earn many points is higher.

[gwnn]

it's hard not to agree with 655321.

[Fluffy]

I disagree with him a bit, seems to me ♠A10xx when LHO has 3 cards is a double stop or a block stop at least.

3NT might be better than 5♦ sometimes, but it is very unlikelly, I'd also bid 5♦.

[zasanya]

Scoring: IMP

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This was North's (Opener) Hand.South bid 4♦ . Now does North have enough to bid 5♦ ?

[Codo]

NO

[jjbrr]

Do you have an agreement about the strength of 3♦? Seems like it should be NF, but partner's sort of stuck because he can't double or bid 3♣ and he won't know what to do later if he passes now, since he has a shortness in their suit and a known 10 card fit.

Maybe 2NT should be conventional in this auction.

Anyway, 655321's approach is very practical.

Edit: it'd be nice to be able to double 2♠ to show the other 3 suits so that both partner and I aren't both bidding my short ♠ later in the auction.

[quiddity]

I don't understand the replies. Why does partner's single-raise of our 5+ card suit show 5+ card trump support?

[kenrexford]

I don't understand any of this. The 2♦ "raise" was defined as a real suit (obviously) and 10+ HCP. We have 11 HCP. This is not that remarkable of a hand, so why are we blasting game?

I mean, I can see bidding again, in some intelligent manner, but blasting? I mean, opposite partner's actual hand, game is a high percentage shot, of course. But, the heart finesse might fail. Plus, if partner had one fewer diamond, where's trick 11?

[jjbrr]

quiddity, on Mar 2 2010, 01:59 PM, said:

I don't understand the replies.  Why does partner's single-raise of our 5+ card suit show 5+ card trump support?

Well... Do you agree he often has 0-1♠? OP told us he can't have 4♥. He doesn't have longer ♣ than ♦ because he didn't bid 3♣.

What does that leave?

Or were you asking about the 2♦ bid which OP explains?

[quiddity]

Yeah, sorry, I didn't read the full OP.

[PhantomSac]

jjbrr, on Mar 2 2010, 02:21 PM, said:

quiddity, on Mar 2 2010, 01:59 PM, said:

I don't understand the replies.  Why does partner's single-raise of our 5+ card suit show 5+ card trump support?

Well... Do you agree he often has 0-1♠? OP told us he can't have 4♥. He doesn't have longer ♣ than ♦ because he didn't bid 3♣.

Seems like he could easily have 1345, why would he bid 3C with a known 9 card diamond fit (which also sounds like it has a non min/game try).

[kenrexford]

Here's the one thing that is sure (hopefully) -- partner knows whether he has four, five, or even six diamonds.

[PhantomSac]

kenrexford, on Mar 2 2010, 02:08 PM, said:

I don't understand any of this. The 2♦ "raise" was defined as a real suit (obviously) and 10+ HCP. We have 11 HCP. This is not that remarkable of a hand, so why are we blasting game?

The reason is that your prime values are very good, even the HJ is often working, and your two doubletons in a 9+ card fit are quite useful (or as jdonn would say, having 4 spades opposite a stiff is quite useful with many trumps).

You can construct many minimums where 5D is a good contract, I mean I see partners hand now but even without the CQ this contract is basically on a hook through the overcaller, it's very good. You can construct some where game is no play also like x Kxx Axxx QJxxx, but blasting certainly seems reasonable since 4D is not a game try.

Do you recommend 4C as a last train game try? I would like that a lot if that's what it was, but I'm not sure that's what it is. If my options are 4D or 5D, I prefer 5D.

[kenrexford]

PhantomSac, on Mar 2 2010, 02:51 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Mar 2 2010, 02:08 PM, said:

I don't understand any of this.  The 2♦ "raise" was defined as a real suit (obviously) and 10+ HCP.  We have 11 HCP.  This is not that remarkable of a hand, so why are we blasting game?

The reason is that your prime values are very good, even the HJ is often working, and your two doubletons in a 9+ card fit are quite useful (or as jdonn would say, having 4 spades opposite a stiff is quite useful with many trumps).

You can construct many minimums where 5D is a good contract, I mean I see partners hand now but even without the CQ this contract is basically on a hook through the overcaller, it's very good. You can construct some where game is no play also like x Kxx Axxx QJxxx, but blasting certainly seems reasonable since 4D is not a game try.

Do you recommend 4C as a last train game try? I would like that a lot if that's what it was, but I'm not sure that's what it is. If my options are 4D or 5D, I prefer 5D.

Of course 4♣ is a last train game bid.

This auction is functionally identical, IMO, to

1♠-2♦-2♠-3♦
3♥

Opener doesn't need anything in hearts, right? Well, same thing -- Responder doesn't need anything in clubs if 4♣ is the only available game invite.

I mean, 4♣ would be MY CHOICE for an "intelligent manner." 3NT might be another choice (playable at 4♦ if Opener panics). 5♦ just seems too unilateral.

5♦ only makes sense if you deprive Opener of the ability to make his own judgment call by his 3♦ call, possibly on garbage.

[PhantomSac]

3N is just as unilateral as 5D, partner is never "panicing;" our hand is unlimited. 3N is also just really bad imo.

4D is just competitive, 3D was NF and 4D was NF and neither is forward going, so it's pretty unilateral.

If 4C is not a game try, then everything is unilateral, so 5D is a good shot to me in that case as you make game opposite some normal mins.

I agree with you if 4C is a game try I think it's the best choice. This is the beginner/int forum so I'm not sure I would just automatically assume that.

[kenrexford]

PhantomSac, on Mar 2 2010, 04:45 PM, said:

3N is just as unilateral as 5D, partner is never "panicing;" our hand is unlimited. 3N is also just really bad imo.

4D is just competitive, 3D was NF and 4D was NF and neither is forward going, so it's pretty unilateral.

If 4C is not a game try, then everything is unilateral, so 5D is a good shot to me in that case as you make game opposite some normal mins.

I agree with you if 4C is a game try I think it's the best choice. This is the beginner/int forum so I'm not sure I would just automatically assume that.

On the one hand, I guess I got caught, again, posting an advanced post in the B/I section.

On the other hand, what the heck is someone doing playing Nebulous Diamond in the B/I group?!?!? I was set up, I say!

[zasanya]

kenrexford, on Mar 2 2010, 08:21 PM, said:

PhantomSac, on Mar 2 2010, 04:45 PM, said:

3N is just as unilateral as 5D, partner is never "panicing;" our hand is unlimited. 3N is also just really bad imo.

4D is just competitive, 3D was NF and 4D was NF and neither is forward going, so it's pretty unilateral.

If 4C is not a game try, then everything is unilateral, so 5D is a good shot to me in that case as you make game opposite some normal mins.

I agree with you if 4C is a game try I think it's the best choice. This is the beginner/int forum so I'm not sure I would just automatically assume that.

On the one hand, I guess I got caught, again, posting an advanced post in the B/I section.

On the other hand, what the heck is someone doing playing Nebulous Diamond in the B/I group?!?!? I was set up, I say!

Thank you Guys for your replies especially the suggestion of 4♣.
My apologies to kenrexford.We that is me and my Partner are not exactly beginners.And we do employ a very facy bidding system viz Viking Precision.
I put this hand in this section because I was very upset by my Partners bid of 4♦ instead of 5♦.In a fit of pique I had remarked that even a beginner would bid 5♦.This hand prevented us from getting a high place in our state championship
To complete the story we played in 4♦ making 5 on a ♥ finesse and our opponents bid 3NT made because ♥ K was doubleton.