[akhare]

mycroft, on Mar 2 2010, 12:07 PM, said:

On the original topic, I would second Berkowitz and Manley (the Precision system I play is based off it), and avoiding (at least to start) relay and asking bid systems.

A redundant third -- also, look at the excellent Revision Club notes here:

http://bridgewithdan...club_4th_ed.zip

[mikegill]

After having played TOSR for quite a few years now my opinions are

1) There are hands where relays are just better, period - slam bidding is much improved in particular. However, these hands are relatively rare because most people interfere liberally and your defense to that needs to be geared towards avoiding disaster not relaying to find your perfect slam.

2) We do play stopper asks and while it's by no means perfect, I can't remember the last time I was at a total guess as to what to do.

3) Relays lose somewhat in double dummy game bidding because you can't find out internal suit quality in partner's long suits or when he has Hx or something in your long suit. However, nobody has really mentioned that you also win back some (if not all) of those boards because they have to at least lead (when you occasionally wrongside) and, most of the time, defend with absolutely no idea what's in one of the two hands.

[PhantomSac]

akhare, on Mar 1 2010, 09:28 PM, said:

PhantomSac, on Mar 1 2010, 05:21 PM, said:

Relays in unobstructed auctions are clearly superior in slam auctions, but imo they are inferior in most game bidding auctions though I'm sure that is debatable.

Out of curiosity, why do you consider relays inferior for game bidding?

Is it because they give away too much information to the defence and / or allow too many lead directing Xs? Isn't the problem solved by transfer oriented relay schemes, where the stronger hand will end up declaring more often that not (in which case the defence knows virtually nothing about declarer's hand)?

It seems like relays do a better job at getting the exact shape before 3N, but you often know nothing or little about honor location. I am not really talking about "stopper ask" type situations, I am just talking about hands where you need to know whether to play the 5-2 major suit fit (maybe if partner has Hx of your major) or the minor suit fit or 3N blah blah. Even if you can ask for a stopper it might not be good enough.

In general I think natural auctions get the most important parts of your shape across and allow you to diagnose honor location pretty well or just general suit orientedness, or whether partner has KJ or the A opposite my stiff (both are a stopper...). Often I don't care if partner is 5521 or 5512, I just want more honor location info before deciding which game to play once I know he is 5-5.

FWIW I have much more experience with naturalish strong club methods than something like TOSR where all my experience comes from partnership bidding heh, but that was my general impression of the differences in game bidding.

[nigel_k]

I'm from New Zealand (the home of symmetric relay) and quite a few of us have never played strong club without relays. So it can be done. If you are switching just because you'd like a change then obviously you can go with something simple. But if you are switching because you want to bid better then you are going to need agreements at least as complex as Symmetric. It has a learning curve but is actually quite relaxing once you get used to it. There are bad hands for relay systems, as others have said, but lots of good hands as well.

[slyq]

re phantom sac
generally ace empty especialy ace doubleton should not be treated as a stopper
nor often do you have to stoper ask before full shape is known splinters early oppisite 2- suited hands solve most other problems

[gwnn]

we just preferred, as a general rule, playing in 3NT whenever we had 5 cards in some sidesuit but 5m when 4. it sounds very rudimentary and fatuous but it worked actually well

[the hog]

Free, on Mar 2 2010, 06:10 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 2 2010, 11:26 AM, said:

No Frederick,
PM changed the system because he felt that semi positives were more valuable. 

Please learn to read before responding with ridiculous irrelevant comments: I was talking about his LIMITED OPENINGS.

I see that you are still both intellectually and lingustically challenged. Have you tried applying for a grant for special assistance?

[straube]

The_Hog, on Mar 2 2010, 07:45 PM, said:

Free, on Mar 2 2010, 06:10 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 2 2010, 11:26 AM, said:

No Frederick,
PM changed the system because he felt that semi positives were more valuable. 

Please learn to read before responding with ridiculous irrelevant comments: I was talking about his LIMITED OPENINGS.

I see that you are still both intellectually and lingustically challenged. Have you tried applying for a grant for special assistance?

Free was writing about limited openers, not semipositive responses to 1C.

[the hog]

straube, on Mar 3 2010, 09:20 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 2 2010, 07:45 PM, said:

Free, on Mar 2 2010, 06:10 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 2 2010, 11:26 AM, said:

No Frederick,
PM changed the system because he felt that semi positives were more valuable. 

Please learn to read before responding with ridiculous irrelevant comments: I was talking about his LIMITED OPENINGS.

I see that you are still both intellectually and lingustically challenged. Have you tried applying for a grant for special assistance?

Free was writing about limited openers, not semipositive responses to 1C.

I am aware of this as unlike Frederick I can read English. Read my response.

[Free]

The_Hog, on Mar 3 2010, 04:15 AM, said:

straube, on Mar 3 2010, 09:20 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 2 2010, 07:45 PM, said:

Free, on Mar 2 2010, 06:10 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 2 2010, 11:26 AM, said:

No Frederick,
PM changed the system because he felt that semi positives were more valuable. 

Please learn to read before responding with ridiculous irrelevant comments: I was talking about his LIMITED OPENINGS.

I see that you are still both intellectually and lingustically challenged. Have you tried applying for a grant for special assistance?

Free was writing about limited openers, not semipositive responses to 1C.

I am aware of this as unlike Frederick I can read English. Read my response.

In that case you should learn how to write as well...

[Vampyr]

awm, on Mar 1 2010, 11:16 PM, said:

Relays only help you in unobstructed auctions,

Unobstructive auction after a strong club? I'm afraid I don't understand.

[Apollo81]

Vampyr, on Mar 3 2010, 09:10 AM, said:

awm, on Mar 1 2010, 11:16 PM, said:

Relays only help you in unobstructed auctions,

Unobstructive auction after a strong club? I'm afraid I don't understand.

I can't tell whether this is a sarcastic comment or not.

[Vampyr]

Apollo81, on Mar 3 2010, 03:19 PM, said:

Vampyr, on Mar 3 2010, 09:10 AM, said:

awm, on Mar 1 2010, 11:16 PM, said:

Relays only help you in unobstructed auctions,

Unobstructive auction after a strong club? I'm afraid I don't understand.

I can't tell whether this is a sarcastic comment or not.

Not at all. When my opponents open a strong club, I find that I hold, with surprising frequency, a 5-card suit or a 4-3 or longer distribution in two suits.