[dbsboy]

---

I have learnt from this forum that when we have a GF hand and no 4 card side suit, I should make a fake reverse or jump shift in a new 3 card suit. And I like this agreement, but I wonder how I should bid this hand.

The real auction actually went like this. My partner passed, I opened 1♥, my partner bid 1♠, I bid 3♦, and then my partner bid 3NT.

I wonder:

1) Should I bid 3♦ with a crappy suit like this?
2) Should I pass, bid 4♥, or 4♠ over 3NT?
3) If I bid 4♥ over 3NT, is responder allowed to make a preference bid of 5♦?
4) If partner was not a passed hand, would that affect your decision?

Thank you.

[mike777]

dbsboy, on Feb 24 2010, 10:05 PM, said:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ KQx ♥ AKQT9x ♦ xxx ♣ A

I have learnt from this forum that when we have a GF hand and no 4 card side suit, I should make a fake reverse or jump shift in a new 3 card suit. And I like this agreement, but I wonder how I should bid this hand.

The real auction actually went like this. My partner passed, I opened 1♥, my partner bid 1♠, I bid 3♦, and then my partner bid 3NT.

I wonder:

1) Should I bid 3♦ with a crappy suit like this?
2) Should I pass, bid 4♥, or 4♠ over 3NT?
3) If I bid 4♥ over 3NT, is responder allowed to make a preference bid of 5♦?
4) If partner was not a passed hand, would that affect your decision?

Thank you.

nonexpert


I just forsee this issue and open 2c.

long major
4 losers
lots of controls

[kenrexford]

Without hitting the judgment issue (whether to bid or not), a few theory issues.

1. Should you bid 3♦ with a crappy suit like this? Sure. If partner rebids spades, you have just bid around your stiff when you raise spades. If partner expects that a JS might be based on a short suit, then xxx won't shock him. With the exact same hand, but 2-2 in the minors, you are kind of boxed in to bidding a doubleton.

2. skipped Q2 -- my judgment in 3NT-vs-4H-vs-other sucks. I have to play sick contracts really well too often.

3. Sure -- if his 3NT bid was insanely wrong. If 3♦ could be convenient, then 4♥ shows hearts, to play. With real diamonds, 4♦ is just about mandatory (if you bid past 3NT).

4. Again with the judgment calls! I'll let someone else hit that.

I mean, I'd bid 4♥, but that's just me.

[the hog]

My view is not a popular one on this forum. However, I believe that jump shifts on 3 card suits are an abomination, particularly on a suit as weak as the D suit you have here. I prefer an artifical and forcing 2NT rebid; now 3C by resp asks for the hand type.

[peachy]

If your diamonds were KQx and spades xxx, 3D would be clear. The fitting spade honors push this hand's value up but at the same time there are those baby diamonds to think about. I think this is a hand is one where no bid is perfect. Result merchants' dream

[EricK]

Chris Ryall's idea of including Acol 2s in the majors (i.e. hands with 8 playing tricks) in with the 2♣ opening works well here.

http://chrisryall.ne...e/two/clubs.htm

[Fluffy]

I am one of those with Ron that rebid 2NT routinell with unbalanced hands, even when I don't play with a regular partner I'd do that too, you land in your best game virtually always anyway, but if you bid 3♦ partner won't be happy to rebid ♠J10xxx.

If your hand is too good to rebid 2NT and be scared o it passed out maybe you should open 2♣.


But this doesn't answer any of your questions:

1) I think you should consider 2NT and 4♥ as alternatives
2) Partner is probably having singleton heart, with a club honnor or 2. Its hard to tell wich game is best, but 4♥ is reasonable.
3) No, no preference normally, unless maybe with heart void and 4 diamonds
4) No, it doesn't change anything to me

[whereagles]

Since I would never make a fake jump shift, I would bid 1♥ + 4♥ (or use that 2NT gadget).

[kenrexford]

Y'all are weird.

I like to have my jump shifts be semi-artificial, meaning that it might show a short suit by agreement.
I hate that. Your second suit is not a real suit. That justs misleads partner.

How can it mislead partner? I said that it was by definition possibly a short suit. Hence, it is semi-artificial.
But, you don't really have diamonds. That just distorts your hand.

Well, how do you handle these hands?
I bid an artificial 2NT.

But, doesn't that distort your hand? I mean, you don't have a balanced hand.
That's different. My 2NT convention is an artificial call. Hence, it is not a distortion.

But, in my method, 2NT is preserved as pure, and I onlty "distort" the suit call, which could be called artificial, if you want. It is less artificial, because the call jujst could be short, or in rare cases could be very short.
Nope. Yours is a distortion. Mine is a convention.

[helene_t]

IMHO you need to play a 2NT rebid as forcing, or else the jump shifts become overloaded. You will lose too many minor suit slams if responder can't trust your jump shifts.

Now all the experts are going to tell me that 2NT forcing is unplayable but that's just because they insist on responding on random 5-counts and upgrade random 17-counts to a 2NT rebid.

Well I suppose you could play a 2♣ rebid as an artificial force.

Sorry for the off-topic rant.

[Fluffy]

yeah helene, join the dark side

[Free]

Just use Gazzilli

[hanp]

If you want to play something artificial then 2C seems much better, you will be able to show many more hand types.

Given that the OP posted this in the SAYC and 2/1 discussion it is safe to assume that no such gadget was availble.

[jjbrr]

I'm fine with a 3♦ rebid. As noted, when we get to raise ♠, we'll have patterned out.

[whereagles]

Free, on Feb 25 2010, 12:54 PM, said:

Just use Gazzilli

dark side > gazilli

[RichMor]

whereagles, on Feb 25 2010, 06:15 AM, said:

Since I would never make a fake jump shift, I would bid 1♥ + 4♥ (or use that 2NT gadget).

Seems reasonable to play 1♥ - 1♠ / 4♥ as showing Hearts with Spade tolerance. Sort of like 1min - 1maj / 4min as fit-showing.