[Onedown]

QTxx QJx Axxx xx

No matter if 2/1 or Sayc, Pard opens 1H and you bid 1S...Pard now jumps to 3 Clubs, natural jump shift.

Question is 3Hs forcing here OR do we use theory of fast arrival and bid 4Hs..

My take on this is since I have no other call, and could be bidding 1S on some 5-6 point minimum 3Hs can be passed?...

This post has been edited by Onedown: 2010-February-23, 13:39

[spotlight7]

Hi:

The jump shift forced to game. 3H will not be passed if partner knows what they are doing.
On bbo that might occur, however, it will not be your fault.

Regards.
Robert

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

3C creates a game forcing auction, hence 3H cant be passed (means
it is forcing).
Since 3H should show real support, since you have 3D available,
the Fast Arival principle applies, 3H is stronger than 4H.

I would bid 4H dont fit very well together.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[straube]

Onedown, on Feb 23 2010, 02:28 PM, said:

QTxx QJx Axxx xx

No matter if 2/1 or Sayc, Pard opens 1H and you bid 1S...Pard now jumps to 3 Clubs, natural jump shift.

Question is 3Hs forcing here OR do we use theory of fast arrival and bid 4Hs..

My take on this is since I have no other call, and could be bidding 1S on some 5-6 point minimum 3Hs can be passed?...

Forcing.

Btw, you should raise partner's hearts immediately with this hand. It's not strong enough to promise 2 bids and you will be in a difficult position after...

1H-1S, 2m-2H sounds like 2-card preference

or even...

1H-1S, 2H-? show hearts now?

or...

1H-1S, 2S-3 spade raise?

[kenrexford]

I'll echo the last post. I think the problem resolves itself better if you bid 2♥ immediately.

I mean, sure. 1♠, and then 3♥, and then 4♥ must show something similar to this (but with at least a fifth spade). But...

1♥-1♠
3♣-3♥

This sequence is not one where Responder has shown three hearts, yet. Compare with...

1♥-2♥
3♣

A much better sequence. Hearts clearly agreed. Or...

1♥-2♥
2♠-3♠

here, spades is still located.

[aguahombre]

yes...avoid 1S/1H with 3 or more hearts unless you have limit raise values or better. Here, no matter what you do you will, by inference, have shown a better hand than you have --unless you totally deny heart support.

[peachy]

3C is GF. Bid 3H.
Some play 4H is fast arrival but that cannot be the case in THIS auction because with heart support and weak hand, responder will support hearts, not bid an unlimited 1S. In this auction 4H should be showing great trumps while 3H is pretty much any hand that either has heart support or maybe only doubleton. Responder should not support clubs unless they are a mile long because opener might have had to manufacture a GF bid with bulky 3-card clubs.

PS. Not that anyone would with a singleton, it was a general principle...

[Fluffy]

1♠ was wrong, and 3♣ is GF, and its not a custom, it is standard 2/1 worldwide.

In sayc since everything is undefinned god knows, but I am pretty sure that experts who play sayc won't bid 1♠, and know 3♣ is GF also.

[helene_t]

Fluffy, on Feb 24 2010, 12:33 PM, said:

3♣ is GF, and its not a custom, it is standard 2/1 worldwide.

I think it has always been standard in all systems with wide-ranging 1-of-a-suit openings(Acol,SEF,SA etc).

Yeah, agree that 1♠ is not so good, if opener rebids 2m you are too strong for 2♠ but too weak for 3♠. Gotta show your strength by an immediate 2♥ bid.

[hanp]

Yep, 2♥.

[gordontd]

helene_t, on Feb 24 2010, 12:39 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Feb 24 2010, 12:33 PM, said:

3♣ is GF, and its not a custom, it is standard 2/1 worldwide.

I think it has always been standard in all systems with wide-ranging 1-of-a-suit openings(Acol,SEF,SA etc).

Actually in traditional Acol it wasn't game forcing, just a one-round force. But then in traditional Acol 1-of-a-suit openings weren't that wide-ranging, because Acol-twos took out many of the strong hands. However now that "everyone" plays weak-twos in Acol it's usual to play opener's jump-shift rebid as game-forcing.

[ONEferBRID]

As others have stated:
1H - 1S
3C = ostensibly a strong 2-suiter, GF

1H - 1S
3C - ??

4H = limit raise w/3 card support-- a hand that would have jumped to 3H over a minimum rebid of say, 2C.... 4H is NOT fast arrival.

3H = less than limit raise and could be as little a 2 card support

[fromageGB]

gordontd, on Feb 24 2010, 02:33 PM, said:

Actually in traditional Acol it wasn't game forcing, just a one-round force. But then in traditional Acol 1-of-a-suit openings weren't that wide-ranging, because Acol-twos took out many of the strong hands. However now that "everyone" plays weak-twos in Acol it's usual to play opener's jump-shift rebid as game-forcing.

Well, I never knew that. I thought it was still just a one round force.

Most people round here open 2♣ with the sort of hand that would want to GF opposite a random 6 count, with 2♦ (perhaps as part of a multi) being the GF open. I think the answer is that the jump shift is only GF if 2♣ is your only strong open.

[jjbrr]

2♥.

3♥ is not game, ergo it cannot be passed.

[fromageGB]

Making the jump shift game forcing seems to have negatives when opener may have anything up to say an 18 count and therefore has to rebid 2♣. Responder with his 8 count has to go on, so rebids, maybe 2NT, and then finds opener has only 12 and you're playing 2NT when opponents have half the pack.

Surely 12-18 is far too big a range for a 2524 shape 2♣ rebid? 3♣ one-round force would be nice ...

[helene_t]

fromageGB, on Feb 24 2010, 04:24 PM, said:

Making the jump shift game forcing seems to have negatives when opener may have anything up to say an 18 count and therefore has to rebid 2♣.  Responder with his 8 count has to go on, so rebids, maybe 2NT, and then finds opener has only 12 and you're playing 2NT when opponents have half the pack.

Surely 12-18 is far too big a range for a 2524 shape 2♣ rebid?  3♣ one-round force would be nice ...

Responder doesn't rebid 2NT with 8 points. 2NT shows 10-11.

With 8-9 responder can often do little other than taking false preference to opener's first suit. Bidding fora are full of problems where some vote for taking false preference on a singleton.

You can play off-shape 1NT rebids, or you can play Gazilli, or you can play a strong club system, or you can play sound Muiderberg so that a two-suited hand that opens at the 1-level has some 12+ points. All this can overcome some of the problems with the wide make of the non-jump rebids in a new suit.

Playing the jump rebid as not GF (in the context of otherwise standard methods, i.e. rebids generally natural and 1-of-a-suit wide-ranging) is a very bad idea, IMO. And very non-standard.

[pooltuna]

Onedown, on Feb 23 2010, 02:28 PM, said:

QTxx QJx Axxx xx

No matter if 2/1 or Sayc, Pard opens 1H and you bid 1S...Pard now jumps to 3 Clubs, natural jump shift.

Question is 3Hs forcing here OR do we use theory of fast arrival and bid 4Hs..

My take on this is since I have no other call, and could be bidding 1S on some 5-6 point minimum 3Hs can be passed?...

abstain as I would have previously called either a constructive 2♥ or a (semi-)forcing 1NT to be followed by 3♥

[gordontd]

fromageGB, on Feb 24 2010, 04:06 PM, said:

Most people round here open 2♣ with the sort of hand that would want to GF opposite a random 6 count, with 2♦ (perhaps as part of a multi) being the GF open. I think the answer is that the jump shift is only GF if 2♣ is your only strong open.

There's no need to open 2C "with the sort of hand that would want to GF opposite a random 6 count", because you can open a suit and partner will respond. It's hands that expect to make game opposite less than a response that might need to start with a forcing bid.

[gordontd]

fromageGB, on Feb 24 2010, 04:24 PM, said:

Making the jump shift game forcing seems to have negatives when opener may have anything up to say an 18 count and therefore has to rebid 2♣. Responder with his 8 count has to go on, so rebids, maybe 2NT, and then finds opener has only 12 and you're playing 2NT when opponents have half the pack.

Surely 12-18 is far too big a range for a 2524 shape 2♣ rebid? 3♣ one-round force would be nice ...

The trouble with 3♣ as a one-round force is that you can't show preference for partner's first suit (or indeed raise partner's second suit) prior to investigating slam without risking being passed out in a part-score.

[peachy]

ONEferBRID, on Feb 24 2010, 09:19 AM, said:

As others have stated:
1H - 1S
3C = ostensibly a strong 2-suiter, GF

1H - 1S
3C - ??

4H = limit raise w/3 card support-- a hand that would have jumped to 3H over a minimum rebid of say, 2C.... 4H is NOT fast arrival.

3H = less than limit raise and could be as little a 2 card support

Plus, 3H covers all hands that are NOT included in 4H (good trumps). That means that 3H is either weak with possible false heart preference, or stronger than limit raise values.