[H_KARLUK]

Scoring: Total Points

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1♠   P   P   2NT
P   6NT
AP

[TylerE]

Uh... south showed a strong balanced hand here. Hard to fault gib when south has shown about a 20-21 count and spades well stopped.

[inquiry]

Scoring: Total Points

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Confusion reigns. East dealt? Did south pass his hand. Has the hand been rotated so that North seat appears in the south seat?

If West was the dealer, south obviously must think that a jump to 2NT is unusual (for the minors). Well, even if a jump to 2NT was for the minors (AND IT CLEARLY SHOULD NOT BE), this is not the hand to use such a bid on. What is wrong with a reasonable and logical DBL of 1S. If you can't bring yourself to double with "only" three card heart support (despite spade ruffing value and very strong three card heart support), then a simple 2C bid will do.

[H_KARLUK]

For 1st post :
ie. 1c p p 2c Mich? Dbl + new = big ? So why not un2N same logic? It wld read 5/5 as doesn't see my hand.
So to your understanding GIB read my hand as 20-21+GIB held 12= 32, 33. Then 1♠ opener at 1st seat vul vs nonvul with 7,8 HCP? C'mon pls.

Dealer obviously West-typo. Big deal ? 2C ok. Was in a hurry, i guess b4 i bid 2N i saw explanation as 'unusual'. Programmer may check the script and post what stated for that call.

[hanp]

Quote

GIB error ?

Not this time.

[TylerE]

Basically, when GIB is asked to guess wether partner or the opponents have psyched, it will go with the opponents 100% of the time.

Plus, there are some 8 counds that just might be opened 1♠..


KJxxxx
KJxxxx
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x

[H_KARLUK]

I think that's a pass then bid if necessary example.

1st seat, vul vs nonvul not a good idea to start with that in your example.

[TylerE]

That's besides the point. GIB assumes you "have your bid", period.

[hatchett]

I had GIB bid 2NT after 1♣ P P on

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. Seems a bit light to me

[nickf]

This is a common beginners-intermediate mistake I see all the time.

The 1345 is about as classic a takeout double as you can find but the player is afraid to double (in case it's left in) so grossly distorts and shows a 2-suiter (which should always be 5-5).

At least 5-5 - that's a money back guaranteed shape. 4-5, 5-4 isnt just wrong, it's very bad and very wrong.

nickf
sydney

[Jlall]

nickf, on Feb 16 2010, 03:45 PM, said:

This is a common beginners-intermediate mistake I see all the time.

The 1345 is about as classic a takeout double as you can find but the player is afraid to double (in case it's left in) so grossly distorts and shows a 2-suiter (which should always be 5-5).

At least 5-5 - that's a money back guaranteed shape. 4-5, 5-4 isnt just wrong, it's very bad and very wrong.

nickf
sydney

Agree with you that it's a very very common error, I always thought the reason was because people are taught not to double without 4 of the unbid major though.

It is also a very common error to think that a 2N balance here shows the minors.

[1eyedjack]

H_KARLUK, on Feb 15 2010, 05:35 PM, said:

b4 i bid 2N i saw explanation as 'unusual'. Programmer may check the script and post what stated for that call.

I didn't understand this comment. I could not find a way of checking the meaning of my bid opposite a GIB partner until after I had made it, but maybe there is a way. Anyway, I created a teaching table, placed GIB as North and myself at all the other three seats. I kept redealing until West was declarer, upon which I forced myself to open 1♠, and carried on redealing until North passed, upon which I passed as East and protected with 2N as South. Then I clicked on the bid and it confirms 19-20 balanced, not unusual. So the script for the bid in the explanation does appear to be correct, and not "unusual".

[H_KARLUK]

Let's try to go step by step :

Do you agree about such additional unusual auctions?
The Unusual 2NT can also be used after both opponents have bid, as in these situations:
1H Pass 1S< 2NT>
or 1H Pass 2H <2NT>
or 1S Pass 1NT <2NT>
The Unusual 2NT convention is useful because it gives up the strong 20-21 point natural 2NT overcall, which practically never occurs, in exchange for preempting the opponents and paving the way for a possible good sacrifice.

For sure I admit 2C ok but double is not my cup of tea. I said i think i saw 2NT as unusual before i touch it (Alloted time problem and was in a hurry to finish in time). So why don't programmer check it and see correct or wrong? Is it really hard to say "sorry, you misread" or "thanks, we will fix it" ?
Now, GIB see partner's hand? If the information I posted is correct isn't it supposed to read my holding as 5/5 minors?
I thought after opps calls (no matter passed 3rd there - pass is also a call) as posted above similar auctions, so it's still on.

Another problem is when GIB plays you cannot quit quickly and join in time for another GIB tournament till that hand finished. Hope Uday and Fred recognize it.

[jdonn]

I don't understand the problem here. A balancing 2NT is natural like opening 2NT. And south has quite an obvious reopening double, there is no other action even worth much consideration. Really the only noteworthy aspect to this hand regarding gib is not investigating a heart fit, but it's probably the case that it has no system over this 2NT bid. In fact I have neglected to discuss it in real life myself.

[1eyedjack]

H_KARLUK, on Feb 17 2010, 12:30 AM, said:

Let's try to go step by step :
Do you agree about such additional unusual auctions?
The Unusual 2NT can also be used after both opponents have bid, as in these situations:
1H Pass 1S< 2NT>
or 1H Pass 2H <2NT>
or 1S Pass 1NT <2NT>
The Unusual 2NT convention is useful because it gives up the strong 20-21 point natural 2NT overcall, which practically never occurs, in exchange for preempting the opponents and paving the way for a possible good sacrifice.

The three examples above are distinguished from the example in the original post in at least two important respects:
(1) In each of the three new examples, responder has shown values. In the OP example responder has denied values. You are significantly more likely to hold a strong balanced hand when responder has denied values.
(2) The principal purpose of pre-emptive bids is to concede a lower expected penalty than allowing the opponents to play in a making game. There is little incentive to pre-empt if passing guarantees that they will not bid game, as your pass would end the auction.

There are other distinguishing features specific to the particular sequences.
(3) After 1S Pass Pass, it is normal for a protective 1NT to show a weak balanced hand, say about 11-14 points. This puts pressure on your alternative methods of showing stronger balanced hands and thereby increases the incentive on allocating 2NT to show one of them. After 1H Pass 1S it is common for 1NT to be natural, but in that case strong. You are also assured of another bid if you pass first time.
(4) After 1H Pass 2H the opponents have announced a fit, suggestive that we also are likely to have one, and the priority of showing a competitive hand with both minors as distinct from one with Spade tolerance (that would be indicated by doubling) is increased. That said I have known players to use 2N as natural here also.

I doubt that this list is exhaustive.

[H_KARLUK]

To 1eyedJack:
No personal attack or name calling, childish sarcastic approach, either cheap rant or ravings intended. I'm old enough

Sorry, I guess your and mine norms are different.
I'm sure Math is an universal science. How about to inspect the problem with that perspective?
1H Pass 1S<2NT> .......12+6 = 18 <still 20-21> ?
or 1H Pass 2H <2NT>.............ditto.........
or 1S Pass 1NT <2NT>............ditto........

Mind share how you read this sequence?
1NT(15-17) pass pass <2NT> ? Natural 20-21 or UN2NT?

If I got correct you think when both opps bid that makes a difference. Well, i recognize different. Either one or both bids doesn't matter to me. Because mathematically there's a total count of their side.

Maybe, I'm lucky and you've a software able to calculate either natural big or UNUSUAL 2NT probability higher to occur.

Thanks.

ps. Assuming English is your parent language please tolerate my grammar errors. 2nd language here.

[helene_t]

Hamdi, the problem with playing unusual 2NT here is that when you have a balanced 19-21 points then you wouldn't be able to describe your hand if not playing 2NT as natural. Dbl followed by 2NT shows slightly less, say 16-18. So you would have to bid 3NT, either directly via a double, which would take you way too high if p has nothing.

In direct seat it is different. Here 1NT would be 15-18 (or something like that) so with 19-21 you can double and then bid 2NT.

OTOH with 5-5 in the minors you can just bid 2♦ and 3♣ next time. Maybe not ideal but it will be adequate most of the time. Again, it is different in direct seat. Here it is important to show both minor immediately as LHO will often raise spades so you won't be able to show your clubs at the 3-level next time if you start with 2♦.

So Gib plays 2NT in balancing seat as natural.

BTW Gib is often too optimistic with its slam bidding IMHO.

[1eyedjack]

HK I hope you did not read my response as anything other than constructive and civil. I certainly recognise that English is not your first language and I allow for it. In turn, you must appreciate that I may misunderstand your meaning.

Without wishing to repeat points already made:

Contrasting
(1) 1H-P-1S-? with
(2) 1H-P-P-?

In both examples the minimum strength promised by opener is the same.
In example 1 responder (RHO) is promising a minimum or 6 points (give or take)
In example 2 responder is promising a maximum of 5 points.

Now I accept that opener's average expected strength is higher in case 2 than in case 1, because the values that responder holds in case 1 must be redistributed in case 2 to the other unseen hands of which opener is one. I am no mathematician (well, not for some time) but I do not need to be one to see that it is unnecessarily pessimistic to assume that all of the values that responder has shown in case 1 but denied in case 2 are, in case 2, held by opener.

Granted that it is possible for you to have a balanced 20 count in either case, it is
(1) more likely that you have such a hand in case 2 than in case 1
(2) more likely that bidding a natural 2N will be a disaster in case 1 than case 2, because if you have got that 20 count, however unlikely, in case 1, you can be reasonably sure that partner will have no values to help you, while it remains quite possible that your partner has values to raise you to game in case 2.

[Old York]

Very few people play a 1NT overcall in 4th seat as 15-18hcp. some play it as 9-12hcp, 11-14hcp or even 13-16hcp.

This means that stronger hands must be shown by bidding 2NT Natural, or by doubling first. 2NT should never be UNT in the pass-out seat.

If the bidding had been:-

(1♠)-p-(2♠) then 2NT would show 5/5 minors

I don't know whether GiB plays 2NT as 17-18, 19-20 or higher, but Gib-North obviously thought a slam was a good idea, holding 3 Aces and 2 good suits. GiB does not just count points, it creates likely hands for partner and bids appropriately.

Tony

[cherdanno]

H_KARLUK, on Feb 16 2010, 06:30 PM, said:

For sure I admit 2C ok but double is not my cup of tea. I said i think i saw 2NT as unusual before i touch it (Alloted time problem and was in a hurry to finish in time). So why don't programmer check it and see correct or wrong? Is it really hard to say "sorry, you misread" or "thanks, we will fix it" ?

No it is easy to say "sorry you misread". In fact, let me say so now: Sorry, you misread. I know because I sometimes have to check, not whether a balancing 2NT is natural (obviously it is), but which point range it is.