[gabika73]

In another topic (the one wioth the balancing 2nt after a 2M opening), I stated that after a 2M opening, with unpassed partner, one should be more willing to enter the auction than after 1M opening.

I am not fully sure about this, however, and I'd like to ask you to express your views...

After 1M opening, one would never overcall with 2♣, when holding a 13count with poor suit quality and a spade shortness (say, x KJx KJTx AJ98x). However, it is a must to enter the auction after a 2♠ opening.

Why? Because of the spade shortness, and because of the strength of the hand.

After 1M, we do not take up bidding space from opps, and our ODR is too low to introduce such a suit. There is not too much to gain, and too much to loose. We do not know whose hand this is, and we will have another opportunity to buy this hand if it belongs to us.

However, after 2M, opps are in a better position: responder will know what to do. So we must bid with a spade stiff, so that partner will have some information about the strength of our line, and will be able to bid. If we remain silent, opps may buy the hand with 3 or 4M undoubled, with us having 26+ points.

There is a saying: when pre-empted, bid aggressively to game - however, be cautious about slams. This is because of the fact, that you want to enter the auction with more marginal hands.

This is somewhat against the idea of having to have more for a 3level overcall than for a 2level overcall (or dbl). And yes, the risk is much higher. You can be doubled by LHO, and go for a phone number if you overcall with such a poor suit quality. However, if you dont, you will be giving up too much 600's and 620's for -140's and +100's.

[paulhar]

gabika73, on Jul 18 2004, 07:51 AM, said:

After 1M opening, one would never overcall with 2♣, when holding a 13count with poor suit quality and a spade shortness (say, x KJx KJTx AJ98x). However, it is a must to enter the auction after a 2♠ opening.

Wouldn't you make a takeout double after both a 1S or a 2S opening?

One thing you neglected to point out that if you pass out a 1-bid you need seven tricks to get a plus score where you only need six tricks against a passed-out two bid. While the difference is miniscule, it is a small point in favor of passing the two bid.

I also agree that you should be agressive with shortness in their suit against a 2-bid but I think you should be just as agressive (if not more so) against their 1-bid. I think it's clear to make a takeout double of 1S with S-x H-A10xx D-AQxx C-10xxx at any vulnerability. Partner's subsequent bidding is going to cramp the opponent's style, and you may steal some partials. Doubling an opening 2S bid is a little rich for me although I'm sure there are those who would.

[mikestar]

My take on this is that you should be about equally agressive. Over 2M your partners expected strength is greater than over 1M because of the weaker opening, but you are one level higher. These factors at least approximately cancel each other.

[luke warm]

i honestly don't agree with "After 1M opening, one would never overcall with 2♣, when holding a 13count with poor suit quality and a spade shortness (say, x KJx KJTx AJ98x)."

so i pass, lho bids 2S, or even 3S, partner passes... now what? double? enter at 3C? i'd definitely overcall 2C after 1S and i'd double after 2S

[the hog]

"(say, x KJx KJTx AJ98x)."

I would x 1S and 2S, and pass 1H with this holding. I would not bid 2C.
The suit quality is too poor.

[Free]

I would NEVER pass with such hand after 1♠. There are imo 3 possible responses: 2♣, 2NT and Dbl. 2NT might be a lie if you play this 55+, so don't use that Choice between 2♣ and Dbl is more difficult imo. I don't think AJ98x is really poor quality in a suit, certainly not when you're behind an opener! Dbl usually promisses 4♥, and the ruffing value isn't great to consider this as a 4 card, since you'll have to ruff with honours! I'd bid 2♣ if my RHO opens 1♠, and in some partnerships I'd bid 2NT...

[whereagles]

Well... nowadays the tendency is to overcall a 2- or 3-level preempt as if it were a level 1 opening. With due attention to the fact opener has extra lenght and under strenght, of course.

[pclayton]

(Unsolicited advertisement for 1N Takeout over 1♠ is deleted by author )

Over 2♠, I double to find out pard's strength and best suit.

3♣ over 2♠ doesn't make much sense to me, but I've never belonged to the "double promises 4 of the unbid major" camp.

[Flame]

This hand x KJx KJTx AJ98x
is good enough for me to bid 2c over 1M, and just a bit weak to bid the suit over 2M. True because of the heart suit i will still find a bid (double on 2M) but i wouldnt dare bidding 3c with this. Double over 1M is probebly also better the 2c but thats not the point of this thread.
One more thing, you mentioned spade shortness as something that will make you want to pass, its just the opposite, i bid 2c with this because i have spade shortness knowing my partner will have 3-4 spades and wont bid himself, if i instead had 3 spades i would easily pass knowing my partner will bid again.

[mishovnbg]

Depend of hand... Because of weak opening you can expect missing honors behind you, so all tenaces are bad, unlike 1 level opening, where you expect they to be good for you. Hand in example is good for bid at 1 level and bad for 2 level opps opening. Still agressive take out double is possible, if you play some convention for unbalanced hands with 4+ card in unbid major - 2NT raptor or meta overcalls. This way your p expect normally 3 cards support in unbid major and will not overbid often.
Misho

[gabika73]

I was definitely wrong with the example hand...
Anyways, I was just trying to make you show me that yes, after 2M, with shortness, you have to take all opportunities to enter the auction.
While after a natural 1suit opening you will not bid with borderline hands, especially at the 2level as a non-exclusive bid.

The main reason being the fact that after 2M, one of the opponents will know the strain and strength of their line: you've just got to give partner some info about your hand if you can.

Shortness in their major is the key, twofold: With shortness it is more probable that responder will have some support for a 3/4M bid: and you will not know (with 11-14 points in each of your hands) whether it is bid to make or to sacrifice.
On the other hand, if responder will not have spade, it is partner to havbe some. Therefore less likely to be able to balance (see the 13pointer balanced hand).

I am not sure whether there is a hand that should enter the auction after 2M, and should pass after 1M (there should be, pls constuct one...;-) ). But definitely you need to be more aggressive and willing to enter. Opponents are in great advantage, and you must take risk to reduce that advantage.