[kayin801]

1♦-(P)-1♥-(P)-
1NT-(X)-P-(2♠)-
X

The 1NT rebid shows a weak NT. Is this auction even possible? What does X mean and what's a typical hand for it? Is this different:

1♦-(P)-1♠-(P)-
1NT-(X)-P-(2♥)-
X

[quiddity]

I would have thought that both doubles (in both auctions) are penalty.

[ArtK78]

The doubles of 1NT are for the unbid suits. Typically, they show hands that could not make a takeout double of the opening bid due to shortness in the major suit bid later by the opponents.

The double of 2♠ in the first hand shows a good defensive hand in context. From the 1NT bidder's failure to bid 1♠ over 1♥ he cannot have 4 spades (unless your style is to rebid 1NT on all balanced hands rather than rebid 1♠).

The double of 2♥ is different. Since the 1NT bidder did not deny holding 4 hearts, the double should show 4 good hearts.

I suppose some would say that a penalty double here is not possible and that it must be competitive. Forcing the bidding up to the 3 level makes no sense to me in this context.

[PhantomSac]

Yeah it's penalty but if you do not bypass spades with 4 spades then Xing 2S doesn't exist.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

The auctions are different.

#1 depends on agreement, but standart is certainly, that the 1Nt response
denies 4 spades, hence T/O, basically the NT opener is 4432 or 5332, in other
words the X promises at least 3 hearts.

#2 now opener could have 4 hearts, and with 3 spades and 2 hearts he could
have bid 2S, so T/O does not really make sense, hence penalty.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[neilkaz]

ArtK78, on Feb 9 2010, 02:51 PM, said:

The doubles of 1NT are for the unbid suits. Typically, they show hands that could not make a takeout double of the opening bid due to shortness in the major suit bid later by the opponents.

The double of 2♠ in the first hand shows a good defensive hand in context. From the 1NT bidder's failure to bid 1♠ over 1♥ he cannot have 4 spades (unless your style is to rebid 1NT on all balanced hands rather than rebid 1♠).

The double of 2♥ is different. Since the 1NT bidder did not deny holding 4 hearts, the double should show 4 good hearts.

I suppose some would say that a penalty double here is not possible and that it must be competitive. Forcing the bidding up to the 3 level makes no sense to me in this context.

I agree with your nice explanation.

[karlson]

I will not claim that this treatment is standard, but I would play both doubles as takeout. Sometimes you will want to compete with a doubleton in their suit, but you'd like to be able to defend if partner has a misfit with some stuff in their suit. This possibility is less frequent of course if you always raise to 2M on 3 with a doubleton in the other major, but in general I think it will come up as often as the penalty double.

Also it's virtually impossible to have a "set in your hand" penalty double here, so you're relying on some values from partner. If partner is broke and you make a penalty double, you have no fit of your own, so it could be an equally bad result whether he sits or pulls. If you make a takeout double and partner is broke, at least you will usually have a fit and rate not to go for a number.

Perhaps the last point is also an argument that these doubles will be very infrequent, which I won't disagree with.

[jdonn]

I vote penalty on both. You already didn't raise partner, didn't rebid diamonds, didn't rebid clubs. I think takeout is too obscure.