[tenbrvc]

We are not playing new minor forcing or fourth suit forcing

In this auction

Opener Responder
1C 1H
1NT 2D

1. Is responder’s 2D rebid forcing?

2. Instead of a 1NT rebid, opener bids 1S.

Opener Responder
1C 1H
1S 2D

Is 2D a forcing or non-forcing?

3. Responder hand is ♠ 3 ♥ KQ754 ♦ QJ432 ♣ 76
a. What should he bid after opener’s 1NT rebid?

b. What should he bid after opener’s 1S rebid?

Thanks in advance for all the expert replies!

[ArtK78]

In basic bidding (the way I learned it about 28 years ago) any new suit bid by responder was forcing one round. So the 2♦ bids in both 1. and 2. are forcing.

Given that, in 3.a. responder's proper bid is 2♥. He does not have enough power to make a forcing 2♦ call and he is guaranteed a playable spot in 2♥, as opener must have at least 2 hearts for his 1NT rebid. After all, no one rebids 1NT with a singleton (this is basic bidding, right?).

In 3.b., responder is not guaranteed a 5-2 heart fit. Therefore, with insufficient power to force the bidding, he must bid 1NT on his 5-5 in the red suits.

The alternative in both 3.a. and b. is to bid 2♦ intending to rebid 3♦. While the 3♦ bid is not forcing, you have driven the bidding up to the three level on a probable misfit.

This is all basic bidding as I recall it from the early 1970s.

[aguahombre]

Even if you don't play the "convention" involving new minor or 4th suit, you should have a rule that a new suit rebid by responder is forcing upon opener for one round.

so, the first two answers would be yes.

My choices for question 3 would be 2H and 1NT. Not pretty, but....

[peachy]

1. In basic bidding, new suit by responder is forcing for one round. For practical reasons, you might adopt a guideline that "If I don't know what a bid means, I will treat it as natural and forcing".

There is additional logic behind all this that we don't want to "try to improve a contract from NT to an unbid minor or from a minor to the other minor" while we often want to try to improve a contract from NT to a major that is rebid. Sometimes we miss a better partscore using this logic when responder is weak but it greatly benefits auctions where responder is stronger and we reach the right game or slam.

2. Still forcing.

3. Responder should bid 2H with this hand. Since opener rebid 1NT, there is at least a 5-2 fit and a heart partscore should be OK. Bidding 2D is forcing and responder is not strong enough to force.

[Gerben42]

1st hand opener has exactly defined his hand with 1NT - so 2♦ is nonforcing.

2nd hand opener has a wide range of strength, so 2♦ should be forcing.

[Siegmund]

I am surprised the first 3 replies all said #1 was forcing.

The rule I learned for uncontested auctions as a beginner, and that still appears in the beginners books now, is that a new suit by an unpassed responder is forcing provided that nobody has bid 1NT. If any of the above does not hold - not a new suit, a passed hand, you're opener, or somebody has bid notrump - only reverses and jump shifts are forcing.

So - #1 NF, #2 F, #3a 2♦, #3b 2♣. In both parts of #3, opener's third bid is expected to be 2♥ if he has 3-card support.

I have seen a lot of online beginners playing #1 as natural and forcing, and as far as I could tell it was because nobody had ever mentioned to them it wasn't. I wonder if that's the way some online source is teaching it nowadays, or if it's just a lot of people not reading the list of exceptions to the "new suit forcing rule."

[ArtK78]

Siegmund, on Feb 19 2010, 02:52 PM, said:

I am surprised the first 3 replies all said #1 was forcing.

The rule I learned for uncontested auctions as a beginner, and that still appears in the beginners books now, is that a new suit by an unpassed responder is forcing provided that nobody has bid 1NT. If any of the above does not hold - not a new suit, a passed hand, you're opener, or somebody has bid notrump - only reverses and jump shifts are forcing.

So - #1 NF, #2 F, #3a 2♦, #3b 2♣. In both parts of #3, opener's third bid is expected to be 2♥ if he has 3-card support.

I have seen a lot of online beginners playing #1 as natural and forcing, and as far as I could tell it was because nobody had ever mentioned to them it wasn't. I wonder if that's the way some online source is teaching it nowadays, or if it's just a lot of people not reading the list of exceptions to the "new suit forcing rule."

In basic bidding of thirty years ago, there was no exception for opener's rebid of 1NT. A new suit by responder was always forcing. Otherwise, there was no way to force except by jumping.

[RichMor]

ArtK78, on Feb 19 2010, 03:06 PM, said:

Siegmund, on Feb 19 2010, 02:52 PM, said:

I am surprised the first 3 replies all said #1 was forcing.

The rule I learned for uncontested auctions as a beginner, and that still appears in the beginners books now, is that a new suit by an unpassed responder is forcing provided that nobody has bid 1NT. If any of the above does not hold - not a new suit, a passed hand, you're opener, or somebody has bid notrump - only reverses and jump shifts are forcing.

So - #1 NF, #2 F, #3a 2♦, #3b 2♣. In both parts of #3, opener's third bid is expected to be 2♥ if he has 3-card support.

I have seen a lot of online beginners playing #1 as natural and forcing, and as far as I could tell it was because nobody had ever mentioned to them it wasn't. I wonder if that's the way some online source is teaching it nowadays, or if it's just a lot of people not reading the list of exceptions to the "new suit forcing rule."

In basic bidding of thirty years ago, there was no exception for opener's rebid of 1NT. A new suit by responder was always forcing. Otherwise, there was no way to force except by jumping.

Art,

My memory of 30 years ago was that responder's new suit at the 2 level over opener's 1NT rebid was not forcing unless a reverse.

Yes, there was no way to force except by jumping. That's why NMF was invented.

RichM

[neilkaz]

RichMor, on Feb 19 2010, 02:13 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Feb 19 2010, 03:06 PM, said:

Siegmund, on Feb 19 2010, 02:52 PM, said:

I am surprised the first 3 replies all said #1 was forcing.

The rule I learned for uncontested auctions as a beginner, and that still appears in the beginners books now, is that a new suit by an unpassed responder is forcing provided that nobody has bid 1NT. If any of the above does not hold - not a new suit, a passed hand, you're opener, or somebody has bid notrump - only reverses and jump shifts are forcing.

So - #1 NF, #2 F, #3a 2♦, #3b 2♣. In both parts of #3, opener's third bid is expected to be 2♥ if he has 3-card support.

I have seen a lot of online beginners playing #1 as natural and forcing, and as far as I could tell it was because nobody had ever mentioned to them it wasn't. I wonder if that's the way some online source is teaching it nowadays, or if it's just a lot of people not reading the list of exceptions to the "new suit forcing rule."

In basic bidding of thirty years ago, there was no exception for opener's rebid of 1NT. A new suit by responder was always forcing. Otherwise, there was no way to force except by jumping.

Art,

My memory of 30 years ago was that responder's new suit at the 2 level over opener's 1NT rebid was not forcing unless a reverse.

Yes, there was no way to force except by jumping. That's why NMF was invented.

RichM

My memory is the same as Rich's and Sigmunds. The new suit non-reverse over a 1NT rebid was non forcing.

[Stephen Tu]

Agree with Siegmund. I learned basic bridge from books published in 60s/70s/80s, Root / Goren / Sheinwold / Truscott, and am absolutely sure that simple new suit NF after 1nt in those books. Clearly everyone plays 1m-1s-1nt-2h as NF. New minor as forcing is introduced as a convention in more advanced material.

I challenge Art to provide a published source.

[helene_t]

If we don't play transfers we play weak takeouts at the 2-level and forcing bids at the 3-level after a 1NT opening, and the same applies after a 1NT rebid, and for the same reasons.

So 1. is nonforcing.

2. is clearly forcing. In fact it's the only forcing bid other than higher number of diamonds and possibly 4♣, so you need to have 2♦ available as a forcing bid. Even if you don't play 4th suit you will have to bid 2♦ with any strong hand that can't commit to a particular strain.

On the other hand, a non-forcing 2♦ bid is not useful. A weak hand with hearts and diamonds can just bid 1NT.

[the hog]

1A 1B
1NT 2C (not a reverse)
2C is not forcing of course. The reason it is nf is that opener has limited his hand by the 1NT bid. Art is incorrect.

In sequence 2, 2D is forcing.