[flytoox]

Vul.: NS
Sitting south, you hold:
S: KQT
H: AXX
D: ATXX
C: JXX

W N E S
-- 1C P 1D
P 1S P 2H(!)
P 3D P ?
2H is 4th suit forcing. What do you bid now? If pd has

S: JXXX H: X D: KQX C: AKQXX
OR
S: AXXX H: X D: KJX C: AQTXX

slam will have very good chance, but if pd has:
S: XXXX H: X D: KXX C: AKQXX

Then slma will down most of time.

Is there any way for pd to bid out the difference?

[Chamaco]

This depends from your slam bidding tools.
Our problem is mainly to be sure of the spade ace and the quality of trumps.

If we could bid right away any form of RKCB in clubs, this would solve the problem.

In all the example below, I have found no solution for checking the trump suit quality, whereas the spade control is relatively easier to check.


Option one
If you use strictly 1st round control cuebids, you can bid 4 clubs agreeing the suit, and pard will not be able to cue the red suits (you have the aces), unless he has a void in hearts;
if he cuebids hearts, it depends how you use 4NT during a cuebidding sequence for slam in a minor. If it is meant as ace ask (not a great choice for minors), it won't work, if it is meant as waiting bid (similar to Last Train, asking for spades here, the suit we have denied), then it will work.

Option 2
If you use mixed cues, 4C anyways asking cues.
if pard cues diamonds, we cue hearts: if he cues spades, I would be nervous about trump quality but gamble and bid 6 with all side suit stopped.

Option 3
you use mixed cues, 4C anyways asking cues, but after suit agreement, 4D is kickback RKCB. In that case 4NT substitutes diamond cuebid.

we bid 4C:
- if pard bid 4D RKCB for clubs, we respond to his queries and we relinquish to him control;
- if pard bids 4H cue, we cuebid 4NT= diamond cue, denies spades cue: we want to be in slam only if pard has the spade ace. Because we keep the bidding open pard knows we want to be in slam if he has a spade control.

[whereagles]

Pard hasn't yet defined his strength, and it's virtually impossible to know it.

If you have something like "4NT last train", bid 4C now and see if pard can bid 4NT. Otherwise settle for the sure plus score and bid 5C. Maybe pard can still do something. Given you didn't bid 3NT, he'll know of your heart weakness, and will reason if your hand is good enough to the 5-level opposite a min, maybe 6C is on if he holds a fair 15-16 hand.

[Flame]

I would want to bid a natural 3sp now, the question is if this shows 3 card or 4 card, imo in a natural system this should show 4 cards, but playing walsh this should show 3 cards, and with 4 cards you should support imidiatly.
In general i dont like the slam chances and wouldnt make too many efforts to get there. if i cant bid 3sp, i would probebly just bid 3nt.

[Free]

3NT, it's my p's turn now. With 4-1-4-4 he should've opened 1♦, with 4-1-3-5 he's minimum. 5♣ is an alternative, but who says p has 5 ♣'s? He can also bid like this with 4-2-3-4 for example... 3NT like the field, our HCP should be able to handle a few small ♥'s

[mishovnbg]

The way I play rebids of 3/4th suit forcing show min/max:

1♣-1♦
1♠-2♥
?

2♠: min, deny stop ♥ / fit ♦
2NT: min, stop ♥
3♣: max, deny stop ♥ / fit ♦
3♦: min, 3+ ♦
3♥: max, Axx+♥. (IMO will be best to play it as exception as max+fit♦)
3♠: min, 6(5)+♣-5+♠ (with max you are for reverse early, I prefer to open 1♠ with such hands if ♠ are not very bad)
3NT: max, stop ♥
4♣: max, 6+♣ good suit-4♠, slam interest
4♦: max, 3+ ♦, singleton ♥
4♥: max, 3+ ♦, void ♥
4♠: min, 5=0=2=6

With given above responses I will not seek for slam, but for best game and my bid will be nat 3♠. Now my p can bid 3NT with Qx in ♥, because he denied stopper early.

By the way by bidding singleton ♥ isn't shown!!! Your p can simple have hand like: S: AXXX H: XX D: KJX C: AQTX or S: JXXX H: XX D: KQX C: AK10X...

Misho

[the hog]

W N E S
-- 1C P 1D
P 1S P 2H(!)
P 3D P ?
2H is 4th suit forcing. What do you bid now? If pd has

You have bid this appalingly, showing a 4441 with a stiff H. How can partner make an intelligent decision?

[Fluffy]

chances of slam are poor, you are going down on many cases.

If you really want to investigate a bi mroe bid 3♥, partner is able to bid 3NT with minimum hands.

But my choice is 5♣, 3NT may go down while 5♣ makes, and also this will tell partner we have opening values without wasted ♥ values, he will be able to bid 6 by himself on some of the hands you gave.


If you play walsh I agree with Flame, 3♠ is great now, and lets partner show his max/min at a safe level.

[flytoox]

The_Hog, on Jul 13 2004, 09:25 AM, said:

W N E S
-- 1C P 1D
P 1S P 2H(!)
P 3D P ?
2H is 4th suit forcing. What do you bid now? If pd has

You have bid this appalingly, showing a 4441 with a stiff H. How can partner make an intelligent decision?

ron, why this shows 4441 with singleton H? if that is the case, wouldnt pd open 1D? I think 5431 is almost certain in this sequence. The only problem is that you are not sure to bid 3N,5c or 6c now.

Hongjun

[paulhar]

People seem to be bidding a lot on this hand. All the examples have a singleton heart. Can partner be 4-2-3-4 with two small hearts? If so, 3NT is bad but all else is worse. If I could bid 3♥, and have partner's 3♠ mean 'HELP! is 3NT at all possible? (shall we call this 'last caboose?' ) I would do that, otherwise I guess I have to bid 3NT and hope partner can do the right thing with the original example (xxxx, x, Kxx, AKQxx) on which 3NT is a disaster but 5C has play. This is going to be pretty difficult for him since I haven't bid clubs; maybe he can bid 4H, pick a game? Unfortuately, all this sounds like slam tries. Also, some players play this 3H as 11 red cards.

In any event, at IMPs, I would assume that partner won't think that 3NT is the right contract if he has a singleton heart, else I would have bid it over 1S.

[PriorKnowledge]

3N. For goodness sakes, when are you going to bid 3N. Stop dancing.

I am with the Hog on this one. It is too late now to bid this hand properly. How much are you going to bid on this min opener with 4333?

Your first bid should have been some level of NT showing your balanced 14. If not on this hand, what kind of hand do you use those bids for?

Of course, now that you have pin-pointed to the defense opener's heart singleton, NT is more dangerous now.

You have already made a GF bid. You have no more than what you have already shown, no longer suits, no better support, NOTHING.

If partner is stronger or more shapely, let partner go beyond 3N.

[Fluffy]

TO paulhar:

Hi paul!, from the post beginner´s deductions (flytoox), I´ve deduced we are playing walsh.

TO the 3NT bidders:

Do you really want to be in 3NT with a known singleton ♥ opposite Axx?

And yes we have something extra: 0 honnors wasted in ♥.

[paulhar]

Fluffy, on Jul 14 2004, 05:15 PM, said:

TO paulhar:

Hi paul!, from the post beginner´s deductions (flytoox), I´ve deduced we are playing walsh.

TO the 3NT bidders:

Do you really want to be in 3NT with a known singleton ♥ opposite Axx?

And yes we have something extra: 0 honnors wasted in ♥.

Maybe all the 3NT bidders thought partner could have 4-2-3-4! I must admit, I'd be pretty dumb to bid 3NT knowing that partner had a singleton heart and five clubs.

Let's look for clues. I looked at flytoox's profile. No mention of Walsh there. Unless I'm missing the obvious, I don't infer Walsh from the text of the post either.

Maybe I'm supposed to assume that if someone is in the expert forum, they play Walsh. Is this really true? That might explain some of my results

[the hog]

"3N. For goodness sakes, when are you going to bid 3N. Stop dancing. "

What on earth is wrong with an immediate 3NT bid? - 13-15, no great suit, all suits stopped.

[cherdano]

mishovnbg, on Jul 13 2004, 08:23 AM, said:

By the way by bidding singleton ♥ isn't shown!!! Your p can simple have hand like: S: AXXX H: XX D: KJX C: AQTX or S: JXXX H: XX D: KQX C: AK10X...

Misho

Hi Misho,

if 1♦ promises either no 4cd major or invitational strength, then it would be very common to rebid 1NT with these hands IMHO. Then 1♠ promises an unbalanced hand. And the whole sequence then implies 4=1=3=5 or even more unbalanced.

To those who bid 3NT directly: Do you really think this hand with 2 Aces and a king is soooo notrumpish that you want to preempt the complete auction? For me, a direct 3NT promises slow values.

Quote

If pd has

S: JXXX H: X D: KQX C: AKQXX
OR
S: AXXX H: X D: KJX C: AQTXX

slam will have very good chance

I think these hands are good example of why you should not try for slam. Your partner can still be minimum. These hands are monsters given his previous biddings.
At IMPs, how about jumping to 5♣? I hope it makes

Quote

we bid 4C:
- if pard bid 4D RKCB for clubs, we respond to his queries and we relinquish to him control;
- if pard bids 4H cue, we cuebid 4NT= diamond cue, denies spades cue: we want to be in slam only if pard has the spade ace. Because we keep the bidding open pard knows we want to be in slam if he has a spade control.

Don't you think you will end up in slam opposite
Axxx - KQJx Kxxxx or Axxx x Jxx AQxxx? True, this are minimum openers, but rich in controls, and since you haven't limited your strength yet, 4NT virtually demands a small slam if partner has the ace of spades.

[gabika73]

Agree.
Or 2nt, if that is your system.
Opener will be in position to decide whether to explore.
With this hand it is quite safe to give away captaincy: you have a hand that can be described pretty well.

Bid 2nt (unless it is only INV), and let the work and thinking to your partner! Straight and simple.

Only with 3nt being 13-15 and 3334 specifically, must you bid 1♦ the first round.
And than we have some questions.

Does opener's 1♠ promise 5+clubs? [yes]
Is your 2♥ F1 or FG? [FG]
I assume yes and FG, since otherwise you have no problem...

Playing 4♣ as ORKCB would solve the problem now.
3♠ should show just what you have, though ♥ stopper would remain unresolved.
3nt would be to play, though partner with great hand (if 3♦ does not show range) can bid further: you could have bid that 3nt without all these investigations, so you must have something - like a mild slam invitation.

[flytoox]

paulhar, on Jul 15 2004, 01:59 AM, said:

I looked at flytoox's profile. No mention of Walsh there. Unless I'm missing the obvious, I don't infer Walsh from the text of the post either.

Maybe I'm supposed to assume that if someone is in the expert forum, they play Walsh. Is this really true? That might explain some of my results

Paul, posting in expert forum doesnt mean I myself is an expert, but only want to listen to experts' opinion. What matters is logic and analysis, not whether he is an expert or world class.

Hongjun

[whereagles]

I think people are making heavy weather of this hand because this is presented as a problem. At table everybody would bid

1D 1H
2C 3NT

LHO leads a spade and you take a bunch of tricks.

Luis would bid

1D 3NT

Now LHO leads a heart and he goes down

(just kidding!)

[paulhar]

flytoox, on Jul 15 2004, 04:24 AM, said:

paulhar, on Jul 15 2004, 01:59 AM, said:

I looked at flytoox's profile.  No mention of Walsh there.  Unless I'm missing the obvious, I don't infer Walsh from the text of the post either.

Maybe I'm supposed to assume that if someone is in the expert forum, they play Walsh.  Is this really true?  That might explain some of my results 

Paul, posting in expert forum doesnt mean I myself is an expert, but only want to listen to experts' opinion. What matters is logic and analysis, not whether he is an expert or world class.

Hongjun

I'm misunderstood again

My point in that post was - how do I know that Walsh is assumed?

I personally don't play Walsh, so I'm going to answer these posts assuming I'm playing 'Standard' or '2/1 without Walsh' unless I'm given evidence to the contrary.

The message I was repsonding to seemed to imply that I should have known that I was playing Walsh. Since I didn't see any evidence to that fact, the assumption must have been that Walsh is 'standard' for the inhabitants of this forum, which I find quite difficult to believe. (Y'all just jump in there and educate me if I'm supposed to assume Walsh as the default!) Since I was supposed to realize Walsh was being played from the original post, and I couldn't find that fact, the evidence must have been the profile of the original poster. Since that didn't help me either, I have to wonder what evidence Fluffy saw that I missed?

Clearly, my posting doesn't imply that I'm an expert either - just that I have something to say that hasn't been said. (I usually avoid the 'me too' posts, so even though it looks like I never agree with anybody, I really do most of the time.)

In no way was my reply intended to be a poke at you (flytoox).

Quite interestingly, if you DON'T play Walsh, you're hearing a lot of expert opinion which doesn't apply to your partnership. And, don't take these answers as an advertisement for Walsh - a lot of fine players don't play Walsh. You may see one of those (not me) discuss his views under a future post resembling 'The EVIL weak four-card major response.'

[Fluffy]

The_Hog, on Jul 15 2004, 06:38 AM, said:

"3N. For goodness sakes, when are you going to bid 3N. Stop dancing. "

What on earth is wrong with an immediate 3NT bid? - 13-15, no great suit, all suits stopped.

Hi Ron!

Well, nothing wrong about 3NT, but moon is full, you are so pretty, and I feel so lonelly...
And I like to investigate on the bidding only for fun. (it hardly ever gives a reward finding slams, but it is so wonderfull when you do) On the given hand I really think thanks to investigate I´ve switched a poor contract of 3NT to a superb contract of 5♣. Small reward for those lead directing doubles I often get for slow bidding .