[akhare]

Apollo81, on Feb 2 2010, 05:02 PM, said:

Followup question for the passers: what are you doing over each of the following:

1. 5♠-P-P
2. 5♠-X-P
3. 6♠-P-P
4. 6♠-X-P

This does beg another follow up question:

How many people who P can do so in tempo? Surely, most of us can't resist gawking at those 7♣ for at least a bit? How does a P after a long tank affect pard's ability to make another bid over say 5♠?

Hopefully, the opps took some time to recollect their agreements over 4N - (5♣) and gave us some time to think...

[PFormaini]

Apollo81, on Feb 2 2010, 10:31 AM, said:

Vul against not, imps

♠x
♥Jxx
♦QJ
♣QJTxxxx

(1♠) p (4NT) 5♣
(p) ?

Bidding anything here is insane.

Partner may, after all, be making a tactical bid with a CLUB void and a side suit for potential sacrifice if the opponents do not bid 7♠.

Why try to mastermind?

Partner may hold:

---

and be setting up the defense to a potential 7♠ call

[manudude03]

If I had to guess, I'd say partner has something like xxx AKTx void AKxxxx (and planning on bidding 5NT over 5♠, else doubling slam (yes it does strange to bid 4NT with KQxx x AKTxxxxx void)

6♣ followed by 7♣* if necessary for me. If partner has psyched, well, it might not be that bad, maybe we'll get out for 800 (+5 imps) or 1100 (-3 imps) if opps have slam on. Partner will run if he has a decent suit, if he doesn't, he's insane.

* If partner doesn't double 6♠.

[the hog]

Quite frankly I have no idea! I suppose I will pass.

Btw, the comment made above is the funniest one I think I have ever read on this forum:
"Partner may, after all, be making a tactical bid with a CLUB void and a side suit for potential sacrifice if the opponents do not bid 7♠.

Why try to mastermind?"

Partner bids 5C with a void and I am masterminding?

[PFormaini]

The_Hog, on Feb 2 2010, 07:44 PM, said:

Quite frankly I have no idea! I suppose I will pass.

Btw, the comment made above is the funniest one I think I have ever read on this forum:
"Partner may, after all, be making a tactical bid with a CLUB void and a side suit for potential sacrifice if the opponents do not bid 7♠.

Why try to mastermind?"

Partner bids 5C with a void and I am masterminding?

Ah yes - another bridge neophyte who has no idea what they are talking about.

Perhaps you should look up 'tactics' in a dictionary.

You would then learn that there is far more to the game of bridge than you can imagine - or, apparently, conceptualize.

FYI - experts often use such tactical bids. (Would be happy to cite numerous examples in the literature - but then, I doubt you have much bridge lterature to consult).

That's why they are experts (and will obtain a PLUS SCORE on said hand) - and you are, well, at the level you occupy. (and will achieve some NEGATIVE score measure din the 100s.

Oh - BTW:

"ArtK78:

Maybe partner is the one with the club void. smile.gif
I have seen stranger things. He bid 5♣ for the lead against a spade contract, planning to run to his long red suit if doubled.
In any event, I pass. "

Funny - ArtK78 said precisely the same thing - before I did. Yet you did not find it amusing?

Apparently your retention skills rival your bridge tactical skills.

[the hog]

PFormaini, on Feb 3 2010, 07:55 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Feb 2 2010, 07:44 PM, said:

Quite frankly I have no idea! I suppose I will pass.

Btw, the comment made above is the funniest one I think I have ever read on this forum:
"Partner may, after all, be making a tactical bid with a CLUB void and a side suit for potential sacrifice if the opponents do not bid 7♠.

Why try to mastermind?"

Partner bids 5C with a void and I am masterminding?

Ah yes - another bridge neophyte who has no idea what they are talking about.

Perhaps you should look up 'tactics' in a dictionary.

You would then learn that there is far more to the game of bridge than you can imagine - or, apparently, conceptualize.

FYI - experts often use such tactical bids. (Would be happy to cite numerous examples in the literature - but then, I doubt you have much bridge lterature to consult).

That's why they are experts (and will obtain a PLUS SCORE on said hand) - and you are, well, at the level you occupy. (and will achieve some NEGATIVE score measure din the 100s.

Oh - BTW:

"ArtK78:

Maybe partner is the one with the club void. smile.gif
I have seen stranger things. He bid 5♣ for the lead against a spade contract, planning to run to his long red suit if doubled.
In any event, I pass. "

Funny - ArtK78 said precisely the same thing - before I did. Yet you did not find it amusing?

Apparently your retention skills rival your bridge tactical skills.

roflmao

I suggest that a course in basic manners might be more appropriate for you than trying to win your local club Saturday afternoon duplicate.

[manudude03]

To get the extinguisher out per se, he was referring to when you say raising clubs is masterminding, but bidding it on a void with a lightner double possibly available is not.

Maybe partner is void (though TC has already said its not the case), but even if it was the case, partner should know it can have some disasterous outcomes.

[PFormaini]

manudude03, on Feb 2 2010, 08:16 PM, said:

To get the extinguisher out per se, he was referring to when you say raising clubs is masterminding, but bidding it on a void with a lightner double possibly available is not.

"...but bidding it on a void with a lightner double possibly available is not."

Except your would NOT double 7 spades with a club void. That would CANCEL the request for a club lead (since that is the EXPECTED LEAD) and would ask for a red suit. A Lightner Double asks for an UNUSUAL or UNEXPECTED lead.

The 5 ♣ bid specifically directs a club lead in this situation (if it is being bid as a tactical bid)

You would PASS 7 spades and accept your plus score with grace and pleasure.

[the hog]

PFormaini, on Feb 3 2010, 08:20 AM, said:

manudude03, on Feb 2 2010, 08:16 PM, said:

To get the extinguisher out per se, he was referring to when you say raising clubs is masterminding, but bidding it on a void with a lightner double possibly available is not.

"...but bidding it on a void with a lightner double possibly available is not."

Except your would NOT double 7 spades with a club void. That would CANCEL the request for a club lead (since that is the EXPECTED LEAD) and would ask for a red suit. A Lightner Double asks for an UNUSUAL or UNEXPECTED lead.

The 5 ♣ bid specifically directs a club lead in this situation (if it is being bid as a tactical bid)

You would PASS 7 spades and accept your plus score with grace and pleasure.

On second thoughts maybe your tactics are such that you would not even win the Saturday afternoon dupicate. You bid 5C and risk a possible misunderstanding and lose to all the pairs that make a lightner double of a high level S contact.

Even more hilarious laughter!

[manudude03]

PFormaini, on Feb 3 2010, 01:20 AM, said:

manudude03, on Feb 2 2010, 08:16 PM, said:

To get the extinguisher out per se, he was referring to when you say raising clubs is masterminding, but bidding it on a void with a lightner double possibly available is not.

"...but bidding it on a void with a lightner double possibly available is not."

Except your would NOT double 7 spades with a club void. That would CANCEL the request for a club lead (since that is the EXPECTED LEAD) and would ask for a red suit. A Lightner Double asks for an UNUSUAL or UNEXPECTED lead.

The 5 ♣ bid specifically directs a club lead in this situation (if it is being bid as a tactical bid)

You would PASS 7 spades and accept your plus score with grace and pleasure.

It seems you haven't got the picture yet. In your case, the opps get to 7♠ which you pass and get your ruff. The problem is that your bid could keep them out of 7♠ (people tend to be more conservative in competition since it's more often the case they can't find exactly what they need).

OTOH if you just hold on for the meantime, let them get to 7♠, you get a slightly bigger plus while the opps won't find out all is not well until it is too late (the only other option is to try 7NT which they won't try unless they could nearly have bid it before).

[nigel_k]

Even assuming both opponents have a void, partner is not introducing a suit of AK9xxx in this auction. It's very clear that it's a lead director or maybe a psyche. No way am I bidding ever.

If I did have this hand and got accused of fielding or an undisclosed agreement or something, I really hope some of the commenters in this thread would not be on the committee.

[PFormaini]

nigel_k, on Feb 2 2010, 08:31 PM, said:

Even assuming both opponents have a void, partner is not introducing a suit of AK9xxx in this auction. It's very clear that it's a lead director or maybe a psyche. No way am I bidding ever.

If I did have this hand and got accused of fielding or an undisclosed agreement or something, I really hope some of the commenters in this thread would not be on the committee.

nigel:

Amen to that!

Plus 6♣ is not going to interfere with any truly experienced partnership's ability to account for its Aces or its playability at the 7 level. In fact, it would ASSIST most well-honed partnerships, since it provides 2 additional bids with which to describe ones hands.

It does nothing but help the opponents evaluate their potential.

[the hog]

He still doesn't get it. I give up!

Anyway, I don't think any committee would consider your pass a fielded psyche under any circumstances, Nigel.

[PFormaini]

The_Hog, on Feb 2 2010, 08:51 PM, said:

He still doesn't get it. I give up!

Anyway, I don't think any committee would consider your pass a fielded psyche under any circumstances, Nigel.

Well, except 5♣ is not a psyche - a tactical bid and a psyche being two different things.

In fact, any committee would laugh anyone who tried for a score adjustment because they went down in 7♠ because of the club ruff right out of the room.

[the hog]

PFormaini, on Feb 3 2010, 09:00 AM, said:

snipped

Well, except 5♣ is not a psyche - a tactical bid and a psyche being two different things.

I suggest you have a look at past posts debating exactly the semantics of this question.

[manudude03]

I'll try one more time. There is clearly something funny going on here. You should never psyche (or "tactical cuebid"- it doesn't matter what colour of paint you use)without a reason. Supposedly it is the one suiter cayuga is mentioning (KQ-9th and a void), why not just bid them (remember, we want to ENCOURAGE them to bid 7 so we can beat it).

One question that really should have been asked earlier was did responder have anything like Jacoby 2NT available (or any other forcing raise). If so, responder must have a huge offensive hand not to care about opener's shape (for all intensive purposes here, I'm assuming responder does want to play in spades which is no guarantee).

The only other way the auction is going to start 1♠-4NT is if responder is fairly new sitting with a bid hand and bids 4NT not knowing what else to do. If that was the case, do we really need to psyche? Natural intervention will almost certainly keep them out of 7. Heck I've played against pairs where intervention will keep them out of 6 when grand is cold, particularly if they play DOPE/ROPE or its reverse.

As for the natural case with both opps having void. yes AK9xxx isn't enough on its own, but if you take the example hand I gave (xxx AKTx void AK9xxx) assuming partner is singleton, you have play for slam opposite ♥Qxxxx and out) and even if you get doubled in 5♣ and be forced to play it there, partner usually has some kind of support (shortage in spades and didn't bid) so you might be able to scramble 6 or 7 tricks at least out of it. Also, it might be the slightly ironic case of them having to bid 6♠ as a sacrifice .

[jjbrr]

lol@this thread.

pretty sick, noble.

[Apollo81]

This hand reminded me of the two previous cases where I had a 13-card club fit (both were also at unfavorable). In each of these cases as in this one, we could only take 9 tricks. The explanation for the auction is that I was playing with a creative partner who thought the lead-directional and obstructional value outweighed the risk of the 5♣ bid (actually, partner only had five clubs). We can't touch 6♠.

[pooltuna]

Apollo81, on Feb 2 2010, 10:31 AM, said:

Vul against not, imps

♠x
♥Jxx
♦QJ
♣QJTxxxx

(1♠) p (4NT) 5♣
(p) ?

At these colors it is hard for me to imagine partner having a 5♣ hand holding at best ♣AK9876 that doesn't have a shot at seven so pass in not an LA IMO.

[pooltuna]

The_Hog, on Feb 2 2010, 09:11 PM, said:

PFormaini, on Feb 3 2010, 09:00 AM, said:

snipped

Well, except 5♣ is not a psyche - a tactical bid and a psyche being two different things.

I suggest you have a look at past posts debating exactly the semantics of this question.

speaking of tactical bidding why is 5♣ the tactical bid but not 4NT. After all it's not like the opponents are NV against us being V with partner being screwed with a hand like

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