jjbrr, on Jan 31 2010, 02:50 AM, said:
my point is that you should never jump to 6♠ over 4NT unless you expect it to be the right spot given my range of hands. And I'll always have ♦ tolerance to bid 4NT. Therefore we sometimes miss the 6-2♠ slam, but we'll end up in the ♦ slam which will always have a fit. I'm skeptical you think we can have perfectly accurate bidding in this auction.
I still don't know what you're talking about.
Jeremy said:
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I'd try 4NT. No idea what it means, but it can't be natural. I hope it suggests diamonds with ♠ tolerance and better than 5♦ directly.
Jeremy also said:
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with 3♠ i think it's crystal clear to bid 4 or more ♠. 4NT, in my mind, implies exactly 2. You may disagree with that, but that is what I meant by tolerance
(bold emphasis mine).
I simply questioned this assertation that 4N shows 2 spades. I wondered what one would do with a slam try that didn't have two spades. In my mind, 4N says nothing about spades, and simply shows a slam try in diamonds.
Jeremy later said:
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i agree it says nothing about spades.
Ok cool, glad that was established.
Jeremy then said:
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I'm skeptical you think we can have perfectly accurate bidding in this auction.
What? You're the guy who said 4N has the specific meaning of a doubleton spade, and diamond support, and a slam try. I'm the guy who said 4N has the meaning of diamond support and a slam try.
My meaning is less precise than your initial meaning (which you later agreed was wrong). How am I the one who is trying to have "perfectly accurate bidding."
You said something about partner not being able to bid 6S over 4N... well duh, I don't think 4N said anything about spades, so why would partner bid 6S? You said something about bidding 5H with spade support, how do you have a hand with spade support that is now trying for 6S/driving to the 5 level, but couldn't even raise to 2S to begin with?
You have said that there are very few hands with a stiff spade that can try for slam in diamonds, and asked me to give an example. I gave one, and you said:
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if you bid 5♠ with that, im happy bidding 6♦.
if you bid 5♦, i pass.
edit: if you bid 5♣, i bid 6♦
I don't understand what that means? My point the whole time has remained that 4N says nothing about spades, so I don't know why partner ever bid 5S over it. I simply gave an example hand where 4N had a stiff spade.
I don't know why you think a doubleton spade is more likely than a stiff spade, a stiff spade with long diamonds is very strong on this auction, much moreso than a doubleton spade. As I said, a 4N bid is rare with any hand, but I can think of many more hands with a stiff spade that have upgraded to a slam try now than with a doubleton spade. Most of the time you had a trap pass of clubs anyways. It seems pretty moot though, as long as you agree that there are some hands where 4N is bid with a stiff spade, then you don't think that 4N shows a doubleton spade.
To reiterate the only points I've made are that:
1) I don't think 4N shows a doubleton spade, or says anything about spades (you agreed)
2) I think there are hands where 4N would be bid with a stiff spade (you implicitly agreed by agreeing with point 1).
I'm not sure why you think that those 2 points mean I think there can be perfectly accurate bidding? I think that 4N may or may not contain 0, 1, or 2 spades, spades is out of the picture, you're simply saying "I have a good 5D bid." I don't think partner will ever bid 5S or 6S over it.
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