[awm]

Sam Ieong and I use an alternative approach here, which seems not to have been discussed directly. Our structure works basically as follows:

The direct responses of 1♥ and above show hands in the semi-positive to minimum game force range. For us this is five-plus hcp and two to six relay points (A=3, K=2, Q=1). There are a number of advantages to this approach as opposed to semi-positives only or game-forcing responses. In particular, we maximize the odds that responder gives some shape information directly, which helps in competition. We avoid relay sequences when opener is minimum and responder has a minimum game force, reverting to natural bidding which is often better for "choice of game" auctions and gives the opponents less information. We retain the ability to relay when opener has extras or a super-fit for responder's suit, and in these cases our relays are helped substantially by the upper limit on responder's strength and by the cheap level of the auction (we have lost no steps). We gain the 1♠ response as a descriptive call (as opposed to using it to show a direct double-negative).

Our 1♦ response shows either the double-negative or the stronger GF hands with seven-plus RP. We also respond 1♦ on a few other game-force hands that prefer to relay rather than describe (eight card suits and such). This is potentially vulnerable to preemption, but the hand types are so different that distinguishing them is usually not hard. There is also some pressure on the opponents to bid constructively because of the 0-4 option (could be their hand) and to be careful because the hands when responder has a "super-game-force" are hands where their partial may go for more than the value of our game. We have not had huge issues in competition with this response. After 1♣-P-1♦-P, opener gets to make a descriptive call (1♥ is natural or a super-strong balanced hand, 1♠ is forcing with 4+♠ and possible canape, 1NT is natural with no game aspirations opposite a typical 0-4, etc). This means opener often gets to show two suits by the two-level opposite a double-negative (i.e. 1♣-1♦-1♠ NAT, F - 2♣ BAD - 2♦ NAT) which helps a lot in finding our best fit. When responder has the "super game force" he gets to relay after opener's rebid.

[straube]

The_Hog, on Feb 1 2010, 03:49 AM, said:

Ok, looked up my notes. I can't guarantee that this is what Paul still plays as I have not played Bridge in Australia for some years now. This is what we played and it was ok.

1C 1S
P obvious
1N 15-20, frequently off shape
2C GF Now 2D 0-2, 2H some 2 suiter, 2S flat, 2NT 3 suited, 3C+ trfs
2D/H/S natural
2NT 21-22
3 any good suit, nf but do you have a trick?
Rest obvious

Thanks.

Did you mean 2C GF Now 2D 0-1? Making 2C GF is expensive (I think worth it), but it seems like if you're in a GF that the priority should shift to discovering distribution. If a fit is found, then you have the 4-level to ascertain whether responder has any queen (slam) points.

[the hog]

Did you mean 2C GF Now 2D 0-1?

2D = 0-2, absolute rubbish hand, one Q at best. This puts you in a good position - well ahead of strong 2C openers, and you still have plenty of room to discover shape. See responses above.

[straube]

Oh, I see. 0-2 HCPs. I was thinking slam points (A=3, K=2, Q=1)
My double negative is 0-2 slam points already.

[straube]

awm, on Feb 1 2010, 01:01 PM, said:

Sam Ieong and I use an alternative approach here, which seems not to have been discussed directly. Our structure works basically as follows:

The direct responses of 1♥ and above show hands in the semi-positive to minimum game force range. For us this is five-plus hcp and two to six relay points (A=3, K=2, Q=1). There are a number of advantages to this approach as opposed to semi-positives only or game-forcing responses. In particular, we maximize the odds that responder gives some shape information directly, which helps in competition. We avoid relay sequences when opener is minimum and responder has a minimum game force, reverting to natural bidding which is often better for "choice of game" auctions and gives the opponents less information. We retain the ability to relay when opener has extras or a super-fit for responder's suit, and in these cases our relays are helped substantially by the upper limit on responder's strength and by the cheap level of the auction (we have lost no steps). We gain the 1♠ response as a descriptive call (as opposed to using it to show a direct double-negative).

Our 1♦ response shows either the double-negative or the stronger GF hands with seven-plus RP. We also respond 1♦ on a few other game-force hands that prefer to relay rather than describe (eight card suits and such). This is potentially vulnerable to preemption, but the hand types are so different that distinguishing them is usually not hard. There is also some pressure on the opponents to bid constructively because of the 0-4 option (could be their hand) and to be careful because the hands when responder has a "super-game-force" are hands where their partial may go for more than the value of our game. We have not had huge issues in competition with this response. After 1♣-P-1♦-P, opener gets to make a descriptive call (1♥ is natural or a super-strong balanced hand, 1♠ is forcing with 4+♠ and possible canape, 1NT is natural with no game aspirations opposite a typical 0-4, etc). This means opener often gets to show two suits by the two-level opposite a double-negative (i.e. 1♣-1♦-1♠ NAT, F - 2♣ BAD - 2♦ NAT) which helps a lot in finding our best fit. When responder has the "super game force" he gets to relay after opener's rebid.

Interesting system.

So 1C-1D, 1H-1S(neg)
but 1C-1D, 1H-1N (pos)

and

1C-1D, 1S-1N (pos)
1C-1D, 1S-2C (neg, p/c, doesn't like spades)
1C-1D, 1S-2L (neg, natural)
1C-1D, 1S-2S (neg, fit)

?

Any chance I could take a look at your system? Or at least the low level continuations for 1C?

2-6 seems a wide range for semipositives...What would you think of 3-6 as a range?

[straube]

The_Hog, on Feb 1 2010, 07:14 PM, said:

Did you mean 2C GF Now 2D 0-1?

2D = 0-2, absolute rubbish hand, one Q at best. This puts you in a good position - well ahead of strong 2C openers, and you still have plenty of room to discover shape. See responses above.

I still don't see the sense of asking partner if he has rubbish if 2C has established a GF. In almost any other GF auction, one finds fit first and then looks for extras. If 2C doesn't quite establish GF, then I understand trying to get the GF.

Look at the scheme I proposed in my other recent thread which allows responder to show many of his shapes. Other than memory load (a real consideration), why not go with something like that and once you've found your fit, ask whether partner truly has rubbish or has extras.

Let's say you've discovered partner has 1-4-3-5 and you have a heart fit. You've created extra room at the 4-level to see if partner has 0, 1, or 2 slam points. I don't see the sense of using bidding space below 3N for this.

Now my local expert thinks 2C as a GF is crazy. He wants...
1C-1D (neg), 1H-1S (DN), 2C-2D (TN)...

.....2H-puppets 2S to show GF balanced hand or heart hand
.....2S-artificial GF
.....2N-nf balanced hand (guessing 22-23)

So after 2S, responder can show one of 13 hand types before 3N has been passed. I admit his structure is safer. He can get out at 2N when partner has that third negative. But I think he's wasting quite a bit of room when 1) partner really does have some useful values (most of the time) and 2) partner has a useful shape.

[akhare]

straube, on Feb 2 2010, 01:14 AM, said:

Now my local expert thinks 2C as a GF is crazy.  He wants...
1C-1D (neg), 1H-1S (DN), 2C-2D (TN)...

.....2H-puppets 2S to show GF balanced hand or heart hand
.....2S-artificial GF
.....2N-nf balanced hand (guessing 22-23)

So after 2S, responder can show one of 13 hand types before 3N has been passed.  I admit his structure is safer.  He can get out at 2N when partner has that third negative.  But I think he's wasting quite a bit of room when 1) partner really does have some useful values (most of the time) and 2) partner has a useful shape.

I wouldn't want to play 2♣ as an absolute GF either, but it seems that can play the proposed alternative *and* SPs using:

1♣ - 1♠ (FN) - 2♣ (22+) - 2♦ (SN -- absolute junk) - blah

[straube]

akhare, on Feb 2 2010, 02:05 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 2 2010, 01:14 AM, said:

Now my local expert thinks 2C as a GF is crazy.  He wants...
1C-1D (neg), 1H-1S (DN), 2C-2D (TN)...

.....2H-puppets 2S to show GF balanced hand or heart hand
.....2S-artificial GF
.....2N-nf balanced hand (guessing 22-23)

So after 2S, responder can show one of 13 hand types before 3N has been passed.  I admit his structure is safer.  He can get out at 2N when partner has that third negative.  But I think he's wasting quite a bit of room when 1) partner really does have some useful values (most of the time) and 2) partner has a useful shape.

I wouldn't want to play 2♣ as an absolute GF either, but it seems that can play the proposed alternative *and* SPs using:

1♣ - 1♠ (FN) - 2♣ (22+) - 2♦ (SN -- absolute junk) - blah

Well, let me argue with you.

The_Hog's 1C-1S, 2N is 21-22 and that seems about right. So 2C is going to be 23+ balanced (or equivalent unbalanced strength). That's only one point shy of the 24 HCPs that many systems require for a unilateral decision to force game in 3N.

The_Hog's structure uses 1C-1S, 2C-2H to show a 2-suited hand which isn't a bust. This leaves 6 steps to describe 13 different patterns. That would leave enough room to show every 5/4 or 4/5 pattern, but not enough room to show shortness or 5/5s.

Just seems like for want of one point in opener's hand, we shouldn't give up on having a more complete picture of partner's pattern.

Don't know if you remember it, but we practiced-bid a hand in which you had a 5431 pattern and junk but 6 was biddable because of the good fit.

[akhare]

straube, on Feb 2 2010, 03:08 AM, said:

Well, let me argue with you.

The_Hog's 1C-1S, 2N is 21-22 and that seems about right. So 2C is going to be 23+ balanced (or equivalent unbalanced strength). That's only one point shy of the 24 HCPs that many systems require for a unilateral decision to force game in 3N.

The_Hog's structure uses 1C-1S, 2C-2H to show a 2-suited hand which isn't a bust. This leaves 6 steps to describe 13 different patterns. That would leave enough room to show every 5/4 or 4/5 pattern, but not enough room to show shortness or 5/5s.

Just seems like for want of one point in opener's hand, we shouldn't give up on having a more complete picture of partner's pattern.

Don't know if you remember it, but we practiced-bid a hand in which you had a 5431 pattern and junk but 6 was biddable because of the good fit.

22 was just a number for illustration...the point being that 1♠ and SP responses can accomplish the 1♣ - 1♦ proposal suggested by your pard and offer more in the bargain.

[straube]

1C-1S, 2C-2D (TN) would make more sense to me if 2C showed 21+. In this setup, one gains when 21+ is opposite a hand with a value or two (compared to 1C-1S, 2N with 21-22), but loses with 23+ opposite anything but total drek.

Still hoping to hear more about awm's system.

[keylime]

We don't relay after 1C-1D due to 1) rebidding frequent 4 card majors and 2) trying to get into our best fit quickly.

[awm]

straube, on Feb 2 2010, 04:32 PM, said:

Still hoping to hear more about awm's system.

Well there's a slightly out-of-date version on my webpage.

I'm not going to repeat the whole thing here, but I can give a few highlights of the 1♣-1♦ sequence, which seems to be the most relevant one. We play 1♦ as 0-4 (any) or various GF hands (usually 7+ RP). Opener bids:

1♥ = 4+♥ or 21+ balanced without 4♠; F1
1♠ = 4+♠; if balanced then 21+; F1
1N = 17-20 balanced, not at all forcing, systems on
2♣ = 5+♣, unbalanced, no other 5-card suit, can have 4♥ but never 4♠, 16-20, NF
2♦ = 5+♦, unbalanced, no other 5-card suit, maybe 4♣, 16-20 NF
2♥ = 4♥ and 5+♣, 21+ hcp, forcing one round
2♠ = 5+/5+ in the minors, 16+ hcp, forcing one round
2N = 21+ hcp, 6+ in a minor, no 4M, if unbalanced then less than GF
3X = shortness in the other suit of same rank; no 4M; 21+ hcp and effectively forcing to game

Many of these are fairly natural. In most cases responder can initiate a game-forcing relay, for example:

1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT = GF relay
1♣-1♦-1♠-1NT = GF relay
1♣-1♦-2♣-2♦ = GF relay
1♣-1♦-2♦-2♥ = GF relay
1♣-1♦-2♥-2♠ = GF relay
1♣-1♦-2♠-2NT = GF relay

Responder's other calls normally show the 0-4 hand and are very often non-forcing. In some cases responder can pass opener's rebid. For example:

1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ = "ordinary" double negative, but forcing one round
1♣-1♦-1♥-2X = distributional hands in the double negative range, fairly natural
1♣-1♦-1♠-2♣ = "ordinary" double negative with 0-2 spades, NF if opener has 4+♣
1♣-1♦-1♠-2X = natural with 0-4
1♣-1♦-2m-Pass or 3m = natural with 0-4
1♣-1♦-2♣-2M = natural with 0-4

[straube]

Thanks a lot. I'm still digesting it, but it seems like you have a really strong system.

I like stuff like 1C-1D, 1H-2H, 2N (just kidding about hearts). You make lots of use of sequences like that.

OTOH, what a memory load...especially for the non-GF auctions.

Would your system be playable if you tightened the semipositives back to 3-5? It just seems like 2-6 is a wide range for investigating/forcing game, but perhaps that's necessary.

Thanks again.

[PrecisionL]

Keylime and I use an old Precision approach (One Club Complete by Radin & Kathy Wei) by using 1♣ - 1♦  as the 0-7 hcp negative and 1♥ and 1♠  rebids by opener are 4+ cards and a 1-round force. We focus on distribution by opener and strength by responder. Responder's cheapest bid (playing IMPs) is a Herbert negative, 0-4 hcp without an Ace.

We play transfer positive responses to 1♣ with 4+ majors, 1NT with both majors, and 2♣ with one or both minors.

Thee is also Lutz's and Fink's American Forcing Minor System, 1995.
Responses to 1♣ (16+ depending on suit):

1♦  0-3 hcp or 8-13 hcp
1♥  4-7 and 3-6 hearts
1♠  4-7 and 3-7 spades
1NT 14+
2♣  4-7 and 6+ clubs
2♦  4-7 and 6+ diamonds
2♥  4-7 and 6+ hearts
2♠  4-7 and 6+ spades
2NT 4-7 and 6 diamonds & 5 clubs
3♣  4-7 and 5 diamonds & 6 clubs
X 9+
XX 10+