[neilkaz]

pooltuna, on Jan 26 2010, 09:18 AM, said:

Hanoi5, on Jan 25 2010, 10:22 PM, said:

Red vs White:

Pass Pass Pass ...

And you hold:

♠AKQT8xxx
♥
♦
♣AKJxx

At these colors you need to prevent the opps finding a save leaving you a guess what to do over 7 of either red suit. Unless you have methods to find the ♣Q opening 2♣ is near pointless.

Both opps have allready chosen to pass even though W vs R. Do we really think they will find a Red save at the 7 level?

[fred]

Open 4NT (Blackwood).

Rebid 7S over any response.

There is a reasonable chance the opponents will think you are confused and Double you.

It is true that you should never use Blackwood with a void, but with 2 voids it is OK

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[pooltuna]

fred, on Jan 26 2010, 10:36 AM, said:

Open 4NT (Blackwood).

Rebid 7S over any response.

There is a reasonable chance the opponents will think you are confused and Double you.

It is true that you should never use Blackwood with a void, but with 2 voids it is OK

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Okay time to release some calculation methods why do you think 7♠ is the at the right odds? Given that partner is 1/3 to hold the ♣Q. How do you dredge up the remaining %age points to get it up to the 70+% you need?

[Jlall]

pooltuna, on Jan 26 2010, 10:49 AM, said:

fred, on Jan 26 2010, 10:36 AM, said:

Open 4NT (Blackwood).

Rebid 7S over any response.

There is a reasonable chance the opponents will think you are confused and Double you.

It is true that you should never use Blackwood with a void, but with 2 voids it is OK

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Okay time to release some calculation methods why do you think 7♠ is the at the right odds? Given that partner is 1/3 to hold the ♣Q. How do you dredge up the remaining %age points to get it up to the 70+% you need?

If he doesn't have the CQ he could have 5 clubs, or he could have 4 clubs in which case the queen rates to drop, or he could have a doubleton club and 3+ spades to the jack in which case we can ruff out clubs, or he could have 2 clubs and 2 spades to the jack in which case we can make on Qx of clubs or 3-3 clubs, or he could have 3 clubs and the spade jack (and maybe the club ten) in which case we can finesse a club, or he could just have 3 clubs and the Qx drops, or he could have 2 clubs and 2 spades and we get 3-3 clubs or he could have a stiff club and 3+trumps, etc etc

Not to mention that a significant portion of the time 7S is down 6S will also be down which means you need less %age than usual.

[fred]

pooltuna, on Jan 26 2010, 03:49 PM, said:

fred, on Jan 26 2010, 10:36 AM, said:

Open 4NT (Blackwood).

Rebid 7S over any response.

There is a reasonable chance the opponents will think you are confused and Double you.

It is true that you should never use Blackwood with a void, but with 2 voids it is OK

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Okay time to release some calculation methods why do you think 7♠ is the at the right odds? Given that partner is 1/3 to hold the ♣Q. How do you dredge up the remaining %age points to get it up to the 70+% you need?

I doubt if you add up things like:

- partner has 3, 4, or 5 clubs without the Queen and the Queen drops
- partner has 0, 1 or 2 clubs without the Queen and you are able to establish the suit by ruffing
- partner has a trump entry and enough side suit winners to take care of your club losers

that you will get up to 70%, but keep in mind that:

1) Sometimes when 7S goes down so does 6S

2) The opponents will frequently lead a trump and have to find a whole bunch of discards. Not knowing that you opened 4NT with one void let alone two, this will not be easy for them, especially if your partner is kind enough to hold an Ace.

Anyway, my post was not really trying to suggest that 4NT then 7S was the definitively correct way to bid this hand. If there even exists a definitively correct way to bid this hand, I don't know what it is.

I was just trying to provide some interesting food for thought.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

fred, on Jan 26 2010, 10:36 AM, said:

Open 4NT (Blackwood).

Rebid 7S over any response.

There is a reasonable chance the opponents will think you are confused and Double you.

It is true that you should never use Blackwood with a void, but with 2 voids it is OK

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Well I visualize this far worse scenario:

LHO is 1714 (with 4 small clubs) and decides to overcall 5♥. RHO is 2560 and raises. Now when we bid 7♠ and RHO doubles LHO will get the lead right, which he otherwise wouldn't have.

[Jlall]

jdonn, on Jan 26 2010, 11:36 AM, said:

fred, on Jan 26 2010, 10:36 AM, said:

Open 4NT (Blackwood).

Rebid 7S over any response.

There is a reasonable chance the opponents will think you are confused and Double you.

It is true that you should never use Blackwood with a void, but with 2 voids it is OK

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Well I visualize this far worse scenario:

LHO is 1714 (with 4 small clubs) and decides to overcall 5♥. RHO is 2560 and raises. Now when we bid 7♠ and RHO doubles LHO will get the lead right, which he otherwise wouldn't have.

Why did LHO pass with 1714 w/r first seat? Why did RHO pass with 2560 w/r 3rd seat?

[jdonn]

Oh they are all passed hands? Bastards.

[pooltuna]

neilkaz, on Jan 26 2010, 10:34 AM, said:

pooltuna, on Jan 26 2010, 09:18 AM, said:

Hanoi5, on Jan 25 2010, 10:22 PM, said:

Red vs White:

Pass Pass Pass ...

And you hold:

♠AKQT8xxx
♥
♦
♣AKJxx

At these colors you need to prevent the opps finding a save leaving you a guess what to do over 7 of either red suit. Unless you have methods to find the ♣Q opening 2♣ is near pointless.

Both opps have allready chosen to pass even though W vs R. Do we really think they will find a Red save at the 7 level?

I read the OPs "Red vs White" to mean we are V and they are not

[gwnn]

yes and neilkaz also said that! he said that opps have passed when they were white vs red. if they pass initially despite white vs red, they don't have much shape. they won't bid to the 7 level.

[hanp]

When all pairs are in slam, 70% is a bad number. 57% is enough if all pairs are in slam and 6S always makes. If 6S doesn't always make then you need even less.