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Is this double penalties, t/o or something else?

Poll: (2H[weak]) X (3C[NAT, NF]) P; (P) X (34 member(s) have cast votes)

(2H[weak]) X (3C[NAT, NF]) P; (P) X

  1. Penalties (12 votes [35.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.29%

  2. Takeout (6 votes [17.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.65%

  3. Extra values, 2+[CL] (14 votes [41.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.18%

  4. Something else (specify) (2 votes [5.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.88%

  5. Depends on whether advancer's X would be penalties or takeout (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   DinDIP 

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Posted 2010-January-23, 06:06

There were very different views expressed about the meaning of the second double when this auction arose at the table:
2H X 3C P
P X
where 2H is weak, the first double is takeout and 3C is natural, non-forcing.

Would your answer be different if
1. the opening were at a different level (say a 1H opening followed by a non-forcing 3C)?
2. the response were at a different level as well (say a 1H opening followed by a non-forcing 2C response)?
3. your partnership agreement were that advancer's (i.e. the partner of the doubler's) X of a new suit were takeout?

And, extra question for those who do play that the second double in auctions like
1H X 1S X
is takeout:
4. Is advancer's X takeout only when the response is forcing?

David
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#2 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-January-23, 06:15

you still have a takeout shape but you show less in clubs and more in spades and diamonds and obviously about at least an ace above minimum strength. partner is welcome to pass the second double with as little as xxxx of clubs.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2010-January-23, 06:33

1435 and 17 points is typical. Could have only two clubs, though.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#4 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-January-23, 07:06

playing too much Fishbein Helene? :)
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2010-January-23, 07:21

oops 4135
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#6 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-January-23, 07:27

S, H, D, C :)
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#7 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2010-January-23, 08:41

Hi,

the 2nd X showes add. strength and is optional, i.e. the
players, who makes the bid, knowes, that he may end up
playing 3Cx, but if p runs, that is also ok as well.

A typical hand would be a strong bal. hand, which was too
strong for 2NT, or which is missing a hearts stopper.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#8 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2010-January-23, 08:48

lol 4153 it is
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#9 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2010-January-23, 11:35

(2H) X = takeout
(2H) X (3C) P (P) X = penalty suggestion with extra values

I would have a lots of questions to those who suggest to play (1H) X (1S) X that the last X is takeout. The first question being : Your are kidding, right?
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2010-January-23, 12:27

peachy, on Jan 23 2010, 12:35 PM, said:

(2H) X = takeout
(2H) X (3C) P (P) X = penalty suggestion with extra values

I would have a lots of questions to those who suggest to play (1H) X (1S) X that the last X is takeout. The first question being : Your are kidding, right?

There's a big difference between 1♥-X-1♠-X and 1♥-X-1♠-P-P-X
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#11 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-January-23, 13:03

DinDIP, on Jan 23 2010, 12:06 PM, said:

And, extra question for those who do play that the second double in auctions like
1H X 1S X
is takeout:
4. Is advancer's X takeout only when the response is forcing?

Cyberyeti: peachy was replying to the part above.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#12 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2010-January-23, 13:34

My vote was strongly penalty-oriented.

1.no 2.no 3.maybe - I think that'd be a bizarre agreement to have in this auction, a nonforcing bid in a suit I supposedly have and where they are advertising a misfit

4. I played this treatment for quite a while (1999-2001ish?) and think it is in principle sound -- at the 1-level only -- but gave it up eventually because "I don't know" was far and away the most common answer I got when I asked "is it forcing?" (both at the club and in regional level open pairs games!)
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