[fachiru]

Scoring: IMP

---

You have this hand as E @ teams.

N deals and it goes:
P-1♦-2♣-X
P-?

Assume X is a normal 7-8+ point with 1M hand.

What's the mainstream meaning of a 3♣ bid at this point ?
1) GF and asking for a club stopper for NT
2) simply looking to get to the right M and not GF
3) GF with both majors

How do you think 3♣ should be best used on this sequence?

Thanks all

[ewj]

Well X tends to be a reasonable hand if partner's going to have to rebid 2NT on a weak NT.
I would tend to play 3♣ as forcing to game, not sure of right strain yet, so responder could choose to do what he or she felt best..
If I had both majors and game forcing I might well rebid 4♣.
If I had a massive hand with both majors, I might bid 3♣ and then 4♣ over partner's 3M bid..
If I had a weak hand and both majors, I would tend to bid 2M (unless I have a good shape, for instance)

[hanp]

I would force to game. I don't have an agreement about what 4C would mean, it may very well show a gameforcing hand with both majors as Ed suggests. In absense of this agreement I would bid 3C and raise 3M to 4M. If partner bids 3D (as they sometimes do) I would bid 3H and risk having to declare the contract.

[helene_t]

I think there is a variety of hands on which opener would like to bid 3♣:
- long diamonds and a major, GF
- long diamonds alone, GF
- Both majors, invitational

It may be difficult to sort them all out, but I think
1♦-(2♣)-x-(p)
3♣-(p)-3♦
should be forcing, so we could put some awkward hands into that bid.

[gnasher]

helene_t, on Jan 19 2010, 03:30 PM, said:

I think there is a variety of hands on which opener would like to bid 3♣:
- long diamonds and a major, GF
- long diamonds alone, GF
- Both majors, invitational

And also:
- Game-forcing balanced with one major
- Game-forcing balanced without a club stop

[peachy]

I don't know if there is a mainstream meaning. This is a good topic!
Without discussion with an adv or better player from my neck of the woods, I would assume 3C by opener denies a major so it is looking for non-major contracts unless neg.doubler bids a major (which then shows 5+ cards and less than 10HCP; with more than 10HCP he would have bid the 5-card suit).

Often cuebid of their suit asks for stopper or forces to game. This auction IMO is a logical exception from that when we are still searching for strain. Also, shows how profitable it is to overcall 2C when they open 1D because "nobody" knows how to deal with various hands after that.

[Fluffy]

I think 3♣ should be used as any GF hand, with both majors invitational you ahve a problem, but having both majors and the strenght for 1NT is something very hard.

I think not overlaoding the cuebid and bidding either 3M or 4♣ is best.


I'd bid bid 4♣ here.

[pooltuna]

fachiru, on Jan 19 2010, 08:14 AM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: N/S Scoring: IMP

♠ KQ98 ♥ QJ62 ♦ AK108 ♣ J

You have this hand as E @ teams.

N deals and  it goes:
P-1♦-2♣-X
P-?

Assume X is a normal 7-8+ point with 1M hand.

What's the mainstream meaning of a 3♣ bid at this point ?
1) GF and asking for a club stopper for NT
2) simply looking to get to the right M and not GF
3) GF with both majors

How do you think 3♣ should be best used on this sequence?

Thanks all

You can't assume anything until you define the possible responses to the -X, i.e.
2♦ no 4 card major minimum so 5+♦ (3352,2353)
2♥ minimum w/3+♥ (2344,3343,3334 worst cases)
2♠ minimum w/3+[sp}] (3244 worst case)
2NT 18-19 balanced
3♣ forcing 1 rd initially both 4 card majors
3♦ invitational w/6♦
3♥ invitational w/4+♥
3♠ invitational w/4+♠&<4♥
3NT long running ♦suit
4♣ splinter for either major
4♦ 6+♦ with one 4 card major
4♥ to play
4♠ to play

one possible version of responses

[fachiru]

pooltuna, on Jan 19 2010, 12:54 PM, said:

You can't assume anything until you define the possible responses to the -X, i.e.
2♦ no 4 card major minimum so 5+♦ (3352,2353)
2♥ minimum w/3+♥ (2344,3343,3334 worst cases)
2♠ minimum w/3+[sp}] (3244 worst case)
2NT 18-19 balanced
3♣ forcing 1 rd initially both 4 card majors
3♦ invitational w/6♦
3♥ invitational w/4+♥
3♠ invitational w/4+♠&<4♥
3NT long running ♦suit
4♣ splinter for either major
4♦ 6+♦ with one 4 card major
4♥ to play
4♠ to play

one possible version of responses

Wow; this sounds like a lot of work

[jdonn]

Not so simple. Have you ever had a game force with running diamonds but no club stopper? Do you want to jump to game with a major that partner might not have? How in the world do you bid over 4♣ splinter for either major, or 4♦ if you want to try for slam? What do the bids mean over 3♣, like does 3♦ by partner deny a major, is it forcing, do both players bid up the line?

[pooltuna]

jdonn, on Jan 19 2010, 01:09 PM, said:

Not so simple. Have you ever had a game force with running diamonds but no club stopper? Do you want to jump to game with a major that partner might not have? How in the world do you bid over 4♣ splinter for either major, or 4♦ if you want to try for slam? What do the bids mean over 3♣, like does 3♦ by partner deny a major, is it forcing, do both players bid up the line?

No it is not simple. I would assume the GF hand would go thru 3♣. As for jumping to an M game, partner has at least 3 cards in the suit the way many play -X in this auction. Bidding over the splinter requires additional discussion I suspect. The point is -X auctions are not all pure and simple but can require substantial bidding structure.

[gwnn]

jlall posted about 1♣-(2♦) 2 years ago (unfortunately the suit symbols are missing, at least for my computer):

http://squeezingthed...04/1c-2d-x.html

[eyhung]

They're missing on mine as well, so I suspect they're missing on everyone's. Justin, ever thought about going back and linking the suit symbols up, or just using SHDC? This is one of the best articles you wrote because it covers an area that doesn't see much press, it would be a shame to have it remain in this state.

[gnasher]

Assuming you play 3♣ as game-forcing, in reply you could play:

3♦ = spades only
3♥ = hearts only
3♠ = both majors, no club stopper
3NT = both majors, both majors

After 3♦ and 3♥, opener can bid the other major to ask for a club stop.

[Jlall]

Yes the suit symbols are messed up for everyone...I was honestly just gonna not fix them but maybe I will since it is annoying me right now heh.