[jillybean]

1.
1♣ X 1♠ X

2.
1♣ P 1♠ X

3.
P P 1♣ P
1♥ P 2♥ X

Please help end a dispute, what are these doubles?

[helene_t]

1. Spades. At least four. Not sure if we are supposed to bid 2♠ with more than four.

2. Red suits. Depending on what other options you have it may show 4-4 or longer hearts. If you play 1NT as natural here it could also be 4♥5♦.

3. 4♠4♦, opening values or maybe a little less.

[hanp]

2. Takeout.

3. Takeout.

1. I play it as spades (usually exactly 4), but some play this as takeout.

[jdonn]

What han said. Personally I think in most cases those that play the first one as takeout are applying what they think are basic principles without realizing that what they are doing is definitely not standard and probably bad.

[matmat]

hanp, on Jan 18 2010, 09:52 AM, said:

2. Takeout.

3. Takeout.

1. I play it as spades (usually exactly 4), but some play this as takeout.

put them in order, dammit...

i read through this without looking at the leading number and thought you were being an idiot for a moment (then i realized i was being an idiot :/)

[helene_t]

Han was just putting them in generalized ascending order.

[Little Kid]

matmat, on Jan 18 2010, 10:37 AM, said:

i read through this without looking at the leading number and thought you were being an idiot for a moment (then i realized i was being an idiot :/)

LOL! Same thing happened to me! I had to read it 4 times until I realised.

[jdonn]

Look what you've caused han! I hope you're satisfied. I'm ashamed to have agreed with you.

[aguahombre]

Why does the 1st double have to have 4 spades? With only 3, do we have to bid NT and let them off the hook? QXX XX AX KQTXXX would seem to be a reasonable double.

[pooltuna]

aguahombre, on Jan 18 2010, 12:08 PM, said:

Why does the 1st double have to have 4 spades? With only 3, do we have to bid NT and let them off the hook?  QXX XX AX KQTXXX would seem to be a reasonable double.

IMO mainly for protection from the psychers. With the hand you showed I would think 3♣ would be a reasonable call.

Edit:oops lost focus on the original auction so yes maybe 2NT

[matmat]

pooltuna, on Jan 18 2010, 12:22 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Jan 18 2010, 12:08 PM, said:

Why does the 1st double have to have 4 spades? With only 3, do we have to bid NT and let them off the hook?  QXX XX AX KQTXXX would seem to be a reasonable double.

IMO mainly for protection from the psychers. With the hand you showed I would think 3♣ would be a reasonable call.

how about some nice # of NTs?

[helene_t]

aguahombre, on Jan 18 2010, 06:08 PM, said:

Why does the 1st double have to have 4 spades? With only 3, do we have to bid NT and let them off the hook? QXX XX AX KQTXXX would seem to be a reasonable double.

No we don't want to defend 1♠x with only 3+3 trumps. Also we don't want p to bid spades with four of them, especially since the 1♠ isn't a psyche most of the time.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 showes spades, this is a counter measure against a well known psych
#2 T/O, 4-4 in the red suits, ... the fine tuned meaning is depend, how
you play a 1NT overcall in this position
#3 T/O, showes short a heart shortage, 4 spades and a 4 card minor,
basically a prebalancing (or OBAR bid = opponents bid and raised),
if partner wants to know about the minor, he bids 2NT, scrambling

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS (added later): #3 - spades and diamonds , although you may
be able to construct hands, where you will be able to reach clubs, the
important factor being, that the X showes a heart shortage, i.e. if p
bids 3C as a response to X, this is to play.

[gwnn]

1st is a penalty double of spades. Could be a 9 count with 4 spades or very strong with 5 (with 8-10 you'd bid 2♠ natural).

2nd is a takeout double. 4♥+4♦, could be longer in both suits but especially diamonds (you'd often double with 4♥6♦ but never with 6♥4♦)

3rs is a takeout double. something like:

4243
4144
4045

with about 9-10 points.

you had no good bid the previous round because you don't have heart length, but you have to get into the auction now. You won't have 5 diamonds or spades because then you would have acted on the previous round.

1♦-p-1♥-p
2♥-x

could, however, have 5 clubs, but not 5 spades (you will often be unable/unwilling to bid your 5 card club suit over 1♦).

[jillybean]

1.
1♣ X 1♠ X if double is spades, what do you bid holding 4 ♥'s and what is:

1♣ X 1♥ X ?

2. 1♣ P 1♠ X takeout 44 in the red suits is clear

3.
P P 1♣ P
1♥ P 2♥ X
If X is takeout, a hand wanting to penalise 2♥ could have overcalled 1♥ on the first round or now must pass?

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on Jan 18 2010, 03:59 PM, said:

1.
1♣ X 1♠ X  if double is spades, what do you bid holding 4 ♥'s and what is:

1♣ X 1♥ X ?

2. 1♣ P 1♠ X  takeout 44 in the red suits is clear

3.
P P 1♣ P
1♥ P 2♥ X
If X is takeout, a hand wanting to penalise 2♥ could have overcalled 1♥ on the first round or now must pass?

#1 if you have 4 hearts, you bid 2H or 3H depending on strength.
The X of 1H is also penalty, or better it showes hearts, similar to the double
of 1S.
#3 Pass, if you have length in hearts, p will be short in hearts, and will and should
reopen the bidding, if 2H reaches him.
I think that there hands, which would like to play 2Hx but could not act over 1C,
a typical shape is 4441, you are not a big fan of 4 card overcalls, and neither do
you like to make a offshape 1NT overcall, which means you have to pass.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gwnn]

Hi Kathryn,

I am not sure what hand would like to penalize 2♥.

maybe hmmm

xx
KJT9
xxx
AKQx

well yes but they're not down yet. the handtype is very rare.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on Jan 18 2010, 03:59 PM, said:

1.
1♣ X 1♠ X  if double is spades, what do you bid holding 4 ♥'s and what is:

1♣ X 1♥ X ?

2. 1♣ P 1♠ X  takeout 44 in the red suits is clear

3.
P P 1♣ P
1♥ P 2♥ X
If X is takeout, a hand wanting to penalise 2♥ could have overcalled 1♥ on the first round or now must pass?

This is an echo of an earlier thread where you asked the same question and got the same answer.

[1♣] x [1♠] 2♥

shows 4+ hearts. It is that simple, and remains that simple. Trying to have this bid show 5+ hearts is contrary to (sound) established fundamentals. As is trying to have the double of 1♠ be anything but penalty of 1♠...a suit your partner has implied and a suit in which the opponents will psyche with virtual impunity if you can't double them.

As for the last point: show me a hand that passes 1♣ and now, opposite a silent partner can double 2♥ for penalty. It doesn't exist unless doubler was at another table on the previous round of bidding.

[jillybean]

Simple and established fundamentals for some perhaps, however these auctions continue to cause problems for me in casual partnerships. 1m X 1M X expecting 44 in the unbids suits is not such an uncommon understanding.

My apologies for repeating the same questions.

[Siegmund]

IMO the use of 1m-X-1M-X as penalty became much less appealing when 1M=forcing became the standard treatment. (At any rate its name should be something more like 'spades-showing' than 'penalty' since 1♠ isn't a possible final contract.)

I have no beef with a pair that agrees to play it as the unbid suits, especially given the rarity with which the average tournament player EVER psychs in the US. I play it that way myself with my reg p.

But do be aware that the standard meaning is spades, and if indiscussed that's what you should assume it is.