[n74tg]

Using 22 or better to open 2 clubs, I've seen several different texts require 8 pts or better to make a positive response (2♥, 2♠ or 2NT).

If it only takes 3-4 pts to reach game why are they advocating 8 for a positive response.

thanks

[mike777]

n74tg, on Jan 17 2010, 10:44 PM, said:

Using 22 or better to open 2 clubs, I've seen several different texts require 8 pts or better to make a positive response (2♥, 2♠ or 2NT). 

If it only takes 3-4 pts to reach game why are they advocating 8 for a positive response. 

thanks

Welcome to the forums.


An excellent question. This is just the type of question that the forums are for. Hope to see you post again.

The simple answer is most play 2d waiting(not negative) in some form and only bid a positive suit response with say....a long suit and two of the three top honors(rare) but other posters can explain it better.

[spotlight7]

Hi:

They are gearing the bidding towards slam. You would bet to game anyway
with 4+ points.

Some players just want the 2 of top three and 8HCP is not needed.
If partner is looking at a top honor third, he knows 5 tricks are easy.

Regards,
Robert

[nigel_k]

After a 2♣ opening you're not really trying to find out if you have a game. You're looking for slam or maybe deciding which is the best game. So the responses are tailored to help achieve that. Usually it's good for responder to keep the bidding low and let the 2♣ opener describe what they have, hence the high standards for a positive meaning most hands respond 2♦.

[barmar]

If you play a system that has an immediate double negative bid (many players use 2♥ to show this), the criteria is often much lower for a positive response: any hand with at least a king or two working queens. With this structure, if responder shows a negative hand, you can stop below game if opener had a minimum 2♣ and there's no fit.

With more traditional structures, it's almost impossible to stop below 3NT. If you can't avoid bidding game, you might as well gear your responses towards deciding whether to explore for slam. This is one of the reasons why many pairs use control steps.

[Fluffy]

n74tg, on Jan 18 2010, 03:44 AM, said:

Using 22 or better to open 2 clubs, I've seen several different texts require 8 pts or better to make a positive response (2♥, 2♠ or 2NT).

If it only takes 3-4 pts to reach game why are they advocating 8 for a positive response.

thanks

The difference between 2♣ openings and other openings is that 2♣ is higher than most, yet it doesn't explain almost anything.

Since opener has normally much more to explain that responder you wanna keep the bidding as low as posible to begin with (2♦) as long as you don't have anything important to say (that we are in the slam zone in your case).

This is the argument for the version you got in those texts, however those texts are probably a bit outdated. Nowadays the modern thrend is to use double negatives with 2♥, or even bid transfer responses with 2♦ being strong.

[helene_t]

Point are not so important. If opener shows a balanced hand, responder is captain, and if opener shows an unbalanced hand, some of responder's points will be wasted.

What is important is a good suit, and aces, which are important for opener to know about for slam bidding.

You use the 2♦ relay for all hands that don't have anything special to say. This includes some pretty good hands. If you don't have anything special to say, it's better to keep the bidding low to allow opener to describe his hand.

Some would say that you should't play the 2NT response as natural but use it for some other purpose, as balanced hands can just bid 2♦ and then support opener's suit (or raise a 2NT rebid to either 3NT or 4NT or 6NT). But even if you do play the 2NT response as natural, there are plenty of good hands that will have to start with 2♦:
- 4441 hands
- 5431 with a 5-card minor
- hands with a bad 5-card major or a bad 6-card minor

This means that after it starts
2♣-2♦
2♥

we may have slam, or we may have to stop in 3♥. Responder now bids 2NT (or 2♠ or 3♣ or whatever you have agreed to) with any hand that is so bad that he doesn't want to commit to game. Then if opener rebids 3♥, responder may pass. Also, if it starts
2♣-2♦
2NT
responder may pass, or transfer to a major and then pass.

But otherwise we always go for at least game after a 2♣ opening.

You can play something different, for example a 2♥ response as negative or 2♣ always forcing to game except for the 2NT rebid. But the above is what I would assume if we haven't discussed it.

[peachy]

HCP is not a good method to evaluate responder's hand, aces and kings are. One King could be golden while three Jacks are typically worthless although one of the jacks could be of some marginal value. A common agreement is that 2C opening is gameforcing unless opener rebids 2NT (which can be passed; or Stayman or transfers used to stop at 3M) so there is no need for methods to stop short of game while methods to find slam and the right slam are necessary. Therefore, responder uses 2D relay with most of the hands and gives a positive natural response only when he REALLY has something good to tell like AQJxx in a suit.

[pirate22]

most answers so far are very good,what the opener should be visualising is,
what is my hand, a balanced hand or a 7/8 bagger-or a 2 suited hand,what responder ,wants to know which hand has my partner got-so 2d is a case in point,with subsequent sequences if 2n/t rebid--if pard responds a suit over 2d,there are further steps a new suit is forcing 1 round(that is if you want to get to game) etc etc
Then there is "Modified Norman" these are steps to convey responders hand to convey the Ace and King count nothing to do with suits.
My only comment re 2h neg and 2sp positive--is what constitutes a neg,for that matter what constitutes a positive..responder does not know what type of hand is partner openining with 2cl ???
regards

[jjbrr]

pirate22, on Jan 22 2010, 11:15 AM, said:

My only comment re 2h neg and 2sp positive--is what constitutes a neg,for that matter what constitutes a positive..responder does not know what type of hand is partner openining with 2cl ???
regards

Isn't this an argument for not playing your modified norman?

It's better to conserve space and bid naturally so that you can have a constructive auction.

[peachy]

pirate22, on Jan 22 2010, 11:15 AM, said:

most answers so far are very good,what the opener should be visualising is,
what is my hand, a balanced hand or a 7/8 bagger-or a 2 suited hand,what responder ,wants to know which hand has my partner got-so 2d is a case in point,with subsequent sequences if 2n/t rebid--if pard responds a suit over 2d,there are further steps a new suit is forcing 1 round(that is if you want to get to game) etc etc
Then there is "Modified Norman" these are steps to convey responders hand to convey the Ace and King count nothing to do with suits.
My only comment re 2h neg and 2sp positive--is what constitutes a neg,for that matter what constitutes a positive..responder does not know what type of hand is partner openining with 2cl ???
regards

I think you are overly concerned about what responder. He doesn't need to know what sort of hand opener has. Be more concerned what responder can TELL. Opener is in charge, unless he rebids 2NT or 3NT - after which responder is in charge.

As to what constitutes a negative and what constitutes a positive, the exact limits are up to partnership agreement. I follow a common agreement which is:
2D = positive (at least one A or K)
2H = negative (no A, no K, and doesn't matter how many quacks)

[pirate22]

well modified norman can apply to hands outside the norm predescibed,and would apply to advanced+ players---- example

AKQJ986--x--AKQJ--x an extreme case,but they do occur,yes there is also the "4n/t opening as well"
another example AKQJ--KX--KQJX--AQ9.

on the first hand pard could have as much as 10/11/12 points .
and on the 2nd hand can have as little as 7/8 points and slam has good chances

[Old York]

n74tg, on Jan 18 2010, 04:44 AM, said:

If it only takes 3-4 pts to reach game why are they advocating 8 for a positive response.

In its simplest form, a positive response is a mild slam try and a negative response is (almost) game forcing.

If your highest ambition is game (or partscore) then make a negative response.
If you can judge that a slam may be likely, then make a positive response.
If your partner's 2♣ bid is fully up to strength, then he will not need much from you to make slam. Older texts advocated a positive response with Ace+King or 8hcp, but modern requirements are often higher. The quality and texture of an 8hcp response is important.

Tony

[blackshoe]

In the good old days™ one made a game forcing opening when one had game in one's own hand. So to get to a slam, you'd need one or two tricks from partner. Then balanced hands not quite enough for game were folded in, so the opening (2♣ was no longer FG if opener rebid 2NT after responder's negative (meaning "no slam interest") bid. Nowadays, opener might need two or three tricks to make a game when he opens 2♣. Worse, players don't seem to have any idea what they're doing, what's forcing and what's not, after a 2♣ opening. They can't describe the hands partner might have, beyond "8 playing tricks", either. If you ask for further info, you get nuthin'.

[Old York]

n74tg, on Jan 18 2010, 04:44 AM, said:

Using 22 or better to open 2 clubs, I've seen several different texts require 8 pts or better to make a positive response (2♥, 2♠ or 2NT). 

If it only takes 3-4 pts to reach game why are they advocating 8 for a positive response. 

thanks

Scoring: IMP

South opens 2♣ in 4th seat
2♣-2♦
3NT-6NT

---

Only 2 tables bid and made this slam

Even though I had 8hcp, I judged that a negative/temporising response of 2♦ may be better. I had no suit worth showing and bidding 2NT might wrong-side the contract.
Partner's 3NT rebid shows 25-28hcp so 6NT is automatic. 6♠ may have been a better contract if South actually held AKxx but would 4♣ be seen as Stayman or Gerber?

South was lucky in the play, finding ♦KJx with East
http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer...5323-1262194282

Tony
p.s. Acol 2♣ opening shows 23+hcp, but makes no difference to this hand
This is because Acol 2NT opening is 20-22hcp(21-22 if agreed)

[barmar]

Tony's example shows that even when you have 33 combined HCP, the locations of the honors are still important. Swap North's minor suits and 6NT is cold, and 7NT has a small chance.

Unless you have a good system for detecting flaws like this, you just bid slam when you have enough combined strength, and hope for the best. Much of the time it's good enough, occasionally you get unlucky hands like this, but occasionally the cards lie favorably so you make it anyway. Most of the field is in the same boat, so going down in a slam on a hand like that won't be a disaster.

[Old York]

barmar, on Jan 25 2010, 05:40 PM, said:

Tony's example shows that even when you have 33 combined HCP, the locations of the honors are still important.  Swap North's minor suits and 6NT is cold, and 7NT has a small chance.

Unless you have a good system for detecting flaws like this, you just bid slam when you have enough combined strength, and hope for the best.  Much of the time it's good enough, occasionally you get unlucky hands like this, but occasionally the cards lie favorably so you make it anyway.  Most of the field is in the same boat, so going down in a slam on a hand like that won't be a disaster.

Scoring: IMP

South reaches 6NT
♥Jack led
Plan the play

---

It occurred to me that South's play in the actual hand was ok, but a bit "rustic" as it relied exclusively on East holding ♦Kxx
Obviously, the diamond finesse is essential.... or is it?

How would you play if this was the layout, or if ♣Queen was unguarded? or ♦K is singleton (or Kx) in West's hand?

Hidden:-

Spoiler

Win Heart lead in hand and duck a Diamond?

Tony

[pirate22]

ole yorke with modified Norman-one gets to slam-
I still maintain responder needs to know what pards 2cl is based on a Bagger or a 2 suited hand-or a 2 n/t type----
i rest my case

[nigel_k]

Play suggestion hidden:

Spoiler

You have ten tricks on top and need to set up one more plus a squeeze or favourable diamond position.

If ♣Q drops you might not need the diamond finesse. For example if East has Qx of clubs plus the long hearts you have a double squeeze regardless of the diamond position.

So ducking a diamond to East will put you to an unnecessary guess if East returns a diamond. Better to run a diamond to West then test clubs. If there is no queen you can still fall back on Kxx of diamonds onside or a squeeze.